Gold Club

[campsawyer]

I agree that it would be better marketing and sales for a WWI game. But it would need to being ready to go for this time which would have required a bit of foresight to have this in development and ready to go some time ago. APL just does not operate with that kind of insight. Despite pulling out a failing company it still is a day to day decision process. As can be seen by its development cycle. Townsand, Perrymen et al designer games they would like to see and submit them to APL. Then APL puts the preorders/Daily Content/newletters and we, the buyers, get jazzed up about it. But then it seems to fall off after that. There is no event or after marketing to keep sales alive.

[Matt W]

Jay,

I think that the preceding conversation was actually quite clear concerning the desire to see APL do well and the wish that they could have followed through on the announced Western Front Infantry Attacks game in time for the centennial. While I am sure that there are people who WANT WW I there are certainly a number who WANT APL to do well and improve its financial viability in combination with its customer service.

The previous announcement to the Gold Club seemed to indicate that the Western Front IA game was already in (or passing through) development thus the reaction you see. Of course if people want to have more WW I games designing them is a good idea, however, this was not about the lack of a "next" WW I game it is about the retraction of a game that could have taken advantage of a looming anniversary with a greater potential to help APL than the second Korea PG game. This is, of course, speculation, but it is based on things like MMP's publication of Last Chance for Victory, with a pre-order period that opened on the first day of the Battle of Gettysburg. The game (a huge one at that) hit its preorder requirement before the 250th anniversary of Pickett's Charge. Imagine the possibilities for a Western Front monster IA game that opened for preorders on August 1, 2014. The Games of August, indeed. That would have been awesome! Plus, it could have given APL some financial support to be able to continue to meet its long standing obligations.

Failure to capitalize on this opportunity is just that and nothing more. As Alan suggests, this is part and parcel to APL's MO. The integrity of the company often seems to run up against the reality of the market. I, for one, choose to support a company that exhibits integrity over those that haven't had a chance to exhibit it (or have shown that they don't have it). I wish that APL had taken advantage of the anniversary. I will not stop supporting them because they missed it.

[JayTownsend]

Ok guys, I understand both sides of the debate and I'll step back from this conversation.

[vince hughes]

If you guys want a WWI game, then you should design something pretty close to complete and turn it in. Then it might speed things up. Personally I am not a WWI fan and bought Infantry Attack more for the maps and to try it out. I might buy the Laurence of Arabia WWI game, as it sounds interesting but I doubt I buy anything else in the WWI line.

WWI games won't just appear unless someone designs them.

Jay, if anybody works the kind of hours I do then designing a WW1 game FOR a wargame company seems a little queer? I can't see APL capturing many robbers in London for example ?

That aside, the way Mike phrased things, I was under the impression western front WW1 was already designed and nearly developed ? You might find Korea 2 falters in sales initially as players will probably want to sample Korea 1 for a while and that takes a while to trickle down before people pull the trigger on another instalment. As a simple example, look how long Saipan was out (and played) before Marianas came along. Even now, Saipan is still what we'd call flowering to the level of an established title rather than having made it just yet. Once folk started enjoying it, they had no hesitation on picking up the next title.

2014 / 1914 is just too obvious a marketing opportunity. Not just because of the dates, but to sell alongside all the new books, dvd's, TV documentaries, parades and memorials being either released or highlighted on the subject of 1914. Those wargamers buying/seeing those products will without doubt want a 1914 game. To have 2 East Front games is good but a bit out of left field. So I think he's missing a biggie forsaking the Belgians, French & BEF of the same year.

When it goes public, I'll give it a run on the CSW forum and MB may well offer up his logic on this issue.

[JayTownsend]

Vince sorry I didn't know you were designing the WWI games. No offense meant!

Its not like I am getting anything out of this, other then spending 200-300 hours on the Korean War games. If gamers don't want my designs anymore, I'll quit doing them, very simple. But I am starting to lose my joy here, I think I'll step back from this web-site for a while and regroup my head or grow thicker skin.

[nicky_longbranch]

Vince sorry I didn't know you were designing the WWI games. No offense meant!

Its not like I am getting anything out of this, other then spending 200-300 hours on the Korean War games. If gamers don't want my designs anymore, I'll quit doing them, very simple. But I am starting to lose my joy here, I think I'll step back from this web-site for a while and regroup my head or grow thicker skin.

No way Jay!!!!!!, Don't let others get you down, your doing wonderful work, trust me. I'm getting so much enjoyment out of Saipan and Marinaras, I'd hate to lose your talent, and input at a time when PG needs you most!!!!

[vince hughes]

Vince sorry I didn't know you were designing the WWI games. No offense meant!

Its not like I am getting anything out of this, other then spending 200-300 hours on the Korean War games. If gamers don't want my designs anymore, I'll quit doing them, very simple. But I am starting to lose my joy here, I think I'll step back from this web-site for a while and regroup my head or grow thicker skin.

Jay,

I think you have completely mis-read my post.

I am neither designing a WW1 game, nor did I mention that nobody wants your designs. I was stating how APL in 2014 are missing the biggest marketing opportunity to sell a Western Front 1914 100 year anniversary wargame by putting it behind other games, one of which is your Korea 2 ? Not sure how else I could have phrased it ?

[tlangston28]

Vince sorry I didn't know you were designing the WWI games. No offense meant!

Its not like I am getting anything out of this, other then spending 200-300 hours on the Korean War games. If gamers don't want my designs anymore, I'll quit doing them, very simple. But I am starting to lose my joy here, I think I'll step back from this web-site for a while and regroup my head or grow thicker skin.

Jay,

I think you have completely mis-read my post.

I am neither designing a WW1 game, nor did I mention that nobody wants your designs. I was stating how APL in 2014 are missing the biggest marketing opportunity to sell a Western Front 1914 100 year anniversary wargame by putting it behind other games, one of which is your Korea 2 ? Not sure how else I could have phrased it ?

Jay - I agree with Vince. I believe the gist of this entire stream of posts is that APL, against all common and practical sense, is doing things that in the normal course of business operation, would easily doom most others. It is, in fact, amazing that despite the lack of commitment to the CUSTOMER, APL is continuing to persevere.

If you look closely, however, you will see that it is not actually APL that is continuing due to any of its own initiative, it is rather the admirable efforts of those who don't get paid (or paid very little - not confirmed just a guess) that keep this "Titanic" afloat.

A few that come to mind.

Jim Stear - a one-man army for the GWAS and most APL titles that keeps these games in the forefront.

Shad - here at PG-HQ, which in my humble opinion, is probably the life-support of APL, for without PG-HQ, there is probably no more PG.

Yourself, Jay, for the outstanding designs and products that you continue to develop around this central core gaming system - and - for the optimism that you bring to the games. If APL put in a tenth of the effort that you do in design, development and promotion, they would not be in the predicament they are in.

In short, I wouldn't take the grumbling about the WW1 games as a criticism of your designs, it is a criticism of the lack of foresight and common sense that gets people up in arms.

Coincidentally, similar to most of the WWI political and military leaders...

[larry marak]

Jay, what others and I were responding to was the disappointment of being told the release of a special project would occur on or about the anniversary of WW1 on July-2, then being told 12 days later that this almost at the press special item is being pushed back in the production sequence. As my grandmother used to say, makes your scratch your head where it doesn't even itch. No umbrage at all mean't to any of your dedicated effort.

[Matt W]

Tony's got it Jay.

The frustration is not that there will be another Korea game out so soon. Heck, I will tell you now that I am probably going to early order it just like everything else PG. It is that APL continues to take actions that keep it at a hand to mouth existence. Perhaps a niche hobby can never be more than that but APL is certainly not testing that hypothesis by making shrewd product positioning a part of their ongoing operation. I'd rather see them do well enough to pay you some pittance for your designs and ongoing support of the company. I'd rather see them support PG-HQ through something more tangible than brief mentions on CSW.