[Rules] AT fire *during* assault

[vince hughes]

Ok Guys,

Now I can see a different picture opening up here and I am very glad I posted the example I did as it has inspired people to write their interpretations in a fuller form.

I am more than happy to adopt the LarryMM and Robin version in all my head-t-o head games as my single aim has always been to have as many players as possible playing the same version (optional rules in 4th ed may scupper that). I can see a coherent side to the version put forward here and it too will be intuitive as proposed. Whether that was the original idea is another thing altogether ? May nobody ever accuse me of intransigence LOL

Gonna be too late to have the assault options re-written in 4th ed unfortunately.

[vince hughes]

Nowhere in 12.52 does it state the defender can defend using AT fire, actually the assault procedure is very clear they must use their Direct Fire value. I interpret attack 12.52 to mean the activated units to fire.

Yes and this is where we differed. I was reading it, due to it being in the assault section of the rules, to mean "Units firing in an assault hex". Whether assaulting or being assaulted.

As all my games are played hth, I will adopt the version proposed here so as to be on the same page as you and Alan ...... being a diplomatic type of guy I am

Funnily enough "Restoring The Line" our next scenario is an all infantry affair...... How ironic !

[vince hughes]

This excerpt to me is the best summary and makes game play easy. The only words I would add is that in this example where 1 or more T34's 'Assault' rather than AT fire, the StGIII's would also get to defend on the Assault table. My words added in brackets and italics :

And the positive outcome of all this shows why all rules debates should not end in thrown teddies !!

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Put those together and it seems to me that if you initiate an assault, all units that move into the assault hex in that activation must participate in Assault combat using the Assault Table. If they begin their activation in an assault hex, they may either fire with AT fire at armor in the hex or assault. They may not do both. Infantry AT weapons in an assault hex are a special case, spelled out in SSRs.

If assaulted, the defenders all participate in Assault Combat using the Assault Table. Since defending does not count as their activation, they may (on their activation) either assault or use AT fire against the enemy in the assault hex (or recover, exit the hex, dig-in, or just sit there).

In the example of the StuGs assaulting the T-34s, when the StuGs move into the hex, they all must assault. All of the T-34s will defend, and both sides will use the Assault Table. Assuming they all survive with no disruptions, the T-34s on their activation may
1) All three assault the StuGs (StG's defend on and roll on assault table), or
2) All fire at them with AT fire (StG's no recourse to assault table), or
3) One fires using AT fire and the other two assault, (StG's defend and roll on assault table at 1 x T34) ) or
4) Two fire using AT fire and one assaults (StG's defend and roll on assault table at 2 x T34) or
5) Use a Move activation to dig in, exit the hex, etc. (StG's no recourse to assault table)

In (3) or (4), the Russian player may activate all of them together in one activation, and choose which to carry out first, the AT fire or the assault.

Assuming all three StuGs survive with no disruptions, on the following turn the German player will have the same choices as the Russian player did.

[Matt W]

Thank goodness y'all came to a conclusion before I started in with my whole infantry AT guns use as a defender in an assault hex...

By coming to the conclusion that you did we maintain the idea that infantry AT weaponry (as opposed to AT rifles) can only be used in an assault hex as the attacker.

[vince hughes]

yes Matt

[campsawyer]

Wow, take a late night flight back from Chicago and the thread explodes with posts.

After reading the back and forth, I am still left wondering is there a consensus? It seems after Robins post, the tone of the thread has turned toward no AT in an assault attack, except the infantry SSR AT, but AT fire can be initiated independently.

If this is true, this leaves me wondering a back to the lowly Soviet ATR. It is an infantry based weapon, but this has the AT value on the counter. Does this mean that they will be treated like tanks and not be able to fire their AT factor in the hex?

This will also be magnified by the fact that MG has units with AT fire values on them too. Granted different game, but in this case, the specific rules are the same in both.

[vince hughes]

Does this mean that they will be treated like tanks and not be able to fire their AT factor in the hex?

This will also be magnified by the fact that MG has units with AT fire values on them too. Granted different game, but in this case, the specific rules are the same in both.

Alan,

If I have understood the purveyors of the "No AT Attack When Entering The Hex" completely, then the ATR foot unit would not be able to fire his AT weapon when entering the hex. All AT weapons can fire when they are already in an assault hex and activated to fire.

[larrymm]

Seconding what Vince says: exactly my conclusion. The ATR is not in the same weapon class as infantry close assault weapons, cf the ATR's range of 3.

[joe_oppenheimer]

if you initiate an assault, all units that move into the assault hex in that activation must participate in Assault combat using the Assault Table. If they begin their activation in an assault hex, they may either fire with AT fire at armor in the hex or assault. They may not do both. Infantry AT weapons in an assault hex are a special case, spelled out in SSRs.

This is how I have always played it. I never felt the rules allowed a unit to move into a hex and then use it's AT fire ability on that activation. That doesn't seem to be assault and it seems to give the AT capable unit a special benefit.

[campsawyer]

Does this mean that they will be treated like tanks and not be able to fire their AT factor in the hex?

This will also be magnified by the fact that MG has units with AT fire values on them too. Granted different game, but in this case, the specific rules are the same in both.

Alan,

If I have understood the purveyors of the "No AT Attack When Entering The Hex" completely, then the ATR foot unit would not be able to fire his AT weapon when entering the hex. All AT weapons can fire when they are already in an assault hex and activated to fire.

Understood, just inconsistent to me, given Grossdeutschland in FoF have ATR's but the Soviets and Finnish have printed AT values and cannot use them.