[Rules] 8.4 Elevation makes no sense to me

[russ]

I am new to PG. Most of the rules seem pretty clear to me, but section 8.4 Elevation makes no sense at all to me.

8.4 Elevation

The map contains lines indicating changes in elevation. Each line represents an elevation change of 20 meters. The LOS between two hexes is blocked if it passes through one elevation line (or other elevating terrain like a town, 8.42) that is higher than both hexes.

If the LOS crosses just one elevation line, let's say "20", then one hex is necessarily at height 0 and the other hex is necessarily at height 20, right? So how could the elevation line be higher than both hexes? It seems like this sentence is describing a LOS-blocking condition which is logically impossible.

Code:

a
22  b

Here hex a is on a 20-hill and hex b is at height 0, so the LOS crosses a 20-contour, of course. How could a and b both be lower than 20 if a 20-elevation line is crossed?

Or does "one elevation line" mean "AT LEAST one elevation line" = "AN elevation line"?

It is also blocked if it passes through two elevation lines of equal height and one of the hexes is lower than both elevation lines.

If the LOS crosses 2 elevation lines of equal height, let's say "20", then if one hex is lower than 20, then necessarily it's at 0, and necessarily both hexes are in fact at 0, right?

Does sentence this mean "exactly two" or "at least two"? If "exactly two", then at least I understand why the LOS would be blocked: there's a hill between the 2 hexes:

Code:

a 2222 b

(here hex a & hex b are at height 0 and don't have LOS over the 20-hill)

But if it means "at least two", then it's less clear. It implies that a 20-high hill would block LOS between a 0-height hex and a 40-high hill, e.g.

Code:

a
44
2222 2       b

Here hex a atop the 40-hill can't see hex b because of the tiny intervening 20-hill (which creates 2 elevation lines of equal height - in total, one 40-line and 3 20-lines are crossed)?

Yet in a similar example where there is no intervening gap between the 40-hill and the 20-hill:

Code:

a
44
222222      b

Here hex a can see hex b because there's not a separate 20-hill in between (so in total, one 40-line and one 20-line are crossed - there are no 2 lines of equal elevation crossed)?

This all makes no sense to me.

Would anything go terribly wrong if I just used the elevation LOS rules from Combat Commander or Fighting Formations?

[plloyd1010]

Elevation lines have long been a problem in PG and other games. They threw me when I first started too. Let's start here, at your first problem:

8.4 Elevation

The map contains lines indicating changes in elevation. Each line represents an elevation change of 20 meters. The LOS between two hexes is blocked if it passes through one elevation line (or other elevating terrain like a town, 8.42) that is higher than both hexes.

If the LOS crosses just one elevation line, let's say "20", then one hex is necessarily at height 0 and the other hex is necessarily at height 20, right? So how could the elevation line be higher than both hexes? It seems like this sentence is describing a LOS-blocking condition which is logically impossible.

First, forget the "one elevation line" part, it can't happen. There is no way to have "one elevation line high than both hexes". You can have other elevating terrain such as towns or woods, which will be 20 meters higher than the ground they are on.

Here hex a is on a 20-hill and hex b is at height 0, so the LOS crosses a 20-contour, of course. How could a and b both be lower than 20 if a 20-elevation line is crossed?

Or does "one elevation line" mean "AT LEAST one elevation line" = "AN elevation line"?

I think they meant 1 line here. As I said before, it can't happen

It is also blocked if it passes through two elevation lines of equal height and one of the hexes is lower than both elevation lines.
If the LOS crosses 2 elevation lines of equal height, let's say "20", then if one hex is lower than 20, then necessarily it's at 0, and necessarily both hexes are in fact at 0, right?

Does sentence this mean "exactly two" or "at least two"? If "exactly two", then at least I understand why the LOS would be blocked: there's a hill between the 2 hexes:

But if it means "at least two", then it's less clear. It implies that a 20-high hill would block LOS between a 0-height hex and a 40-high hill, e.g.

Whether they meant to say "at least two" is irrelevant, but linguistically that would be correct. This is the ridge rule.

Here hex a atop the 40-hill can't see hex b because of the tiny intervening 20-hill (which creates 2 elevation lines of equal height - in total, one 40-line and 3 20-lines are crossed)?

Technically yes. I know, it wasn't thought out well.

This all makes no sense to me.

Would anything go terribly wrong if I just used the elevation LOS rules from Combat Commander or Fighting Formations?

No and it would likely go better. You may have also noted that you can see down any slope of a hill from any hex on the top. (We created a crest rule to deal with that.) We the elevation chart from Panzerblitz 2:
   

[zaarin7]

Hopefully this will be clear as mud in the 4th ed rules coming out in Burning Tigers.

[campsawyer]

Hopefully this will be clear as mud in the 4th ed rules coming out in Burning Tigers.

Red clay mud to be specific

[Shad]

If you substitute "level" for the last instance of "line" I do believe it makes easy sense.

[russ]

Thanks very much for the replies! It's good to know it's not just me being dense about the inexplicable elevation rules...

It's strange that this one rule section is so bizarrely incoherent, as the rest of the rules seem to be fairly carefully written and edited.

I tried out the first scenario (solo) yesterday and enjoyed it (pretty much using the elevation rules T88.3 Hills & LOS from Combat Commander...). Things mostly went smoothly, some forgotten rules of course. (It was Scenario 1 from Elsenborn Ridge, ending in a draw. Took roughly 4 hours.)

I'd read about how the game often starts off with chain reactions of leader activations so very big long activations happen, and then as things get shot up, the activations become short and simple; indeed this proved true...! Interesting effect.

===

I hit upon a few things I wasn't sure of (in case anyone can answer these easily)...

1. Can you simply order off-board artillery strikes during ANY of your activations as desired, in addition to whatever on-board activation you do? Or is it instead of doing a "normal" unit activation?

(PS: I do see now the additional info that "Only three offboard artillery factors or fire values may be used per activation segment." in the online annotated rules - that is useful to know! I didn't know it during my first solo play yesterday so the Germans did some very heavy barrages early on...)


2. Do I understand correctly that when you activate multiple units:
If any of them are demoralized, then you MUST do the recovery check for them (instead of move or fire).
If any of them are disrupted, then you MAY CHOOSE to do a recovery check for them or to do normal movement or firing with them.
Is all that right?

3. 14.42 was a bit confusing:

14.42 Required Recovery

Every demoralized unit must attempt recovery at some point during the course of a turn (owning player chooses when). Thus, a player may not "pass" if he has demoralized units that haven't activated this turn - they must try to recover.

I THINK it means merely that IF you activate a demoralized unit, THEN you must try to recover it, BUT it's possible and legal that you don't activate it (because you run out of activations) and therefore don't try to recover it... right? The essential point of the rule is simply that IF you have any demoralized units, then you're not allowed to pass... right? But you're not FORCED to activate specifically demoralized units if you have a choice... or are you?

---

Are there any highly recommended rule summaries / charts / cheat sheets to download? E.g. concisely listing all the various effects of morale / disrupted / demoralized in different rule sections, or concisely listing all the ways a leader might be eliminated, etc? That sort of summary could be helpful.

[campsawyer]

I THINK it means merely that IF you activate a demoralized unit, THEN you must try to recover it, BUT it's possible and legal that you don't activate it (because you run out of activations) and therefore don't try to recover it... right? The essential point of the rule is simply that IF you have any demoralized units, then you're not allowed to pass... right? But you're not FORCED to activate specifically demoralized units if you have a choice... or are you?

A demoralized unit MUST attempt to recover during the course of a turn. At some point you will need to activate the unit and attempt to recover it. You may not PASS as an activation if you have unactivated demoralized units. The only way you can avoid this the activation of these units is if you are playing with the Fog of War rules. Meaning that if FoW is rolled the game turn ends whether you have recovered the units or not.

[Shad]

1. Can you simply order off-board artillery strikes during ANY of your activations as desired, in addition to whatever on-board activation you do? Or is it instead of doing a "normal" unit activation?

OBA uses up an entire activation. You may not activate any units or leaders on the board during the same activation.

2. Do I understand correctly that when you activate multiple units:
If any of them are demoralized, then you MUST do the recovery check for them (instead of move or fire).
If any of them are disrupted, then you MAY CHOOSE to do a recovery check for them or to do normal movement or firing with them.
Is all that right?

Correct.

3. 14.42 was a bit confusing:
The essential point of the rule is simply that IF you have any demoralized units, then you're not allowed to pass... right? But you're not FORCED to activate specifically demoralized units if you have a choice... or are you?

Demoralized units may be activated at any time in the turn, but you may NOT pass if you still have unactivated demoralized units on the board.

Are there any highly recommended rule summaries / charts / cheat sheets to download? E.g. concisely listing all the various effects of morale / disrupted / demoralized in different rule sections, or concisely listing all the ways a leader might be eliminated, etc? That sort of summary could be helpful.

I once wrote a concise morale summary.

[vince hughes]

I hit upon a few things I wasn't sure of (in case anyone can answer these easily)...

1. Can you simply order off-board artillery strikes during ANY of your activations as desired, in addition to whatever on-board activation you do? Or is it instead of doing a "normal" unit activation?

(PS: I do see now the additional info that "Only three offboard artillery factors or fire values may be used per activation segment." in the online annotated rules - that is useful to know! I didn't know it during my first solo play yesterday so the Germans did some very heavy barrages early on...)


2. Do I understand correctly that when you activate multiple units:
If any of them are demoralized, then you MUST do the recovery check for them (instead of move or fire).
If any of them are disrupted, then you MAY CHOOSE to do a recovery check for them or to do normal movement or firing with them.
Is all that right?

3. 14.42 was a bit confusing:

14.42 Required Recovery

Every demoralized unit must attempt recovery at some point during the course of a turn (owning player chooses when). Thus, a player may not "pass" if he has demoralized units that haven't activated this turn - they must try to recover.

I THINK it means merely that IF you activate a demoralized unit, THEN you must try to recover it, BUT it's possible and legal that you don't activate it (because you run out of activations) and therefore don't try to recover it... right? The essential point of the rule is simply that IF you have any demoralized units, then you're not allowed to pass... right? But you're not FORCED to activate specifically demoralized units if you have a choice... or are you?

---

Are there any highly recommended rule summaries / charts / cheat sheets to download? E.g. concisely listing all the various effects of morale / disrupted / demoralized in different rule sections, or concisely listing all the ways a leader might be eliminated, etc? That sort of summary could be helpful.

1/ An activation may consist of you either activating on-board resources OR off-board, but not both. If you do activate off-board artillery (OBA), then you can combine up to 3 modules (ie: 2 x 12 + 1 x 20 = 44pts so use the 42col). You may wish to use just one or two modules, but three is the max that can be combined. You also can not activate 3 x modules of OBA at once and have them all fire at different hexes. Any OBA activated in the same activation segment (AS) must be used at the same hex.

2. DISRUPTED units can be activated to move or fire. Also, bare in mind that a recovery activation counts as a move activation anyway (for DIS & DEM counters). So there is no 'recovery' "Instead of move/fire" it is a MOVE activation. This is an important distinction in games where you play a live opponent.

If DIS units are activated to fire, they do so at 1/2 strength (rounded up). If they are activated to move, they may move only one hex. They also CAN NOT enter an assault but may attack at half-strength if already in an assault.

Are there any highly recommended rule summaries / charts / cheat sheets to download? E.g. concisely listing all the various effects of morale / disrupted / demoralized in different rule sections, or concisely listing all the ways a leader might be eliminated, etc? That sort of summary could be helpful.

Probably, I'm not sure, but a play ftf or on Skype with the good few involved in such may well teach you a lot very quickly !

[Memenne]

"You also can not activate 3 x modules of OBA at once and have them all fire at different hexes. Any OBA activated in the same activation segment (AS) must be used at the same hex."

Vince,
I don't see that in the rules. Does it come from an errata ?