Anyone interested in reviving the point system for unit values?

[larry marak]

A relic from PG's conception as a replacement game for PanzerBlitz (PG was offered to Avalon Hill, but they offered too little and wanted too much control), PG originally had a unit point chart for Soviet and Wehrmacht units, so you could design a scenario with orders of battle determined by the purchase value of units. Since Cassino came out this system has been replaced by campaigns in which entire battalions are brought in by expediture of campaign points. Would anyone be interested in reviving the original point-value tables? I enjoy playing out short "Ogre " style games, which an invincible defense meeting an irresistable offence. I can do this till the cows come home with units from 1st edition PG, but I'd like to extend this to all the nationalities of PG. Anyone got a prayer of how to do this?

[larry marak]

To start off, the point value system for PanzerBlitz for AFV's was Attack factor + range factor+defense factor+movement factor= purchase point value. A PZIVe was worth 25 points by this formula.

In Panzer Grenadier a PzIVe has a direct fire value 10/ range 6, an anti-tank value of 4/range 7, an armor factor of 4 and a movement factor of 7. As figured in PG Ist edition the purchase cost of a PzIVe is 155.

[plloyd1010]

I would be. I would like to see a system more representative a unit's worth than what PB/PL had.

Referring to your example, DF factors are much more useful at 1 or 2 hexes than at 3. Likewise with AT fire over 6 hexes. BF points are functionally less valuable than DF points on the fire tables. I would want to see the formula you might have in mind.

I did very much like Situation X in PB, and it's corresponding variation for PL. I briefly tried to adapt something something using the C&C:EF point values. I didn't take it very far.

[larry marak]

Maybe the place to start might be with infantry, as the designer has acknowledged that PG is an infantry game that plays like a tank game.

Rus. Infantry direct fire 4/ range 3/ movement 3, PG purchase value 15 points.

Ger. infantry 5/3/3 purchase value 24.

Rus heavy machine gun platoon 7/4/2 purchase value 31 points

Ger heavy machine gun platoon 9/7/2 purchase value 51 points

So far this sounds like there is a Germanocentric bias in point values, but all the values here and above reflect an adjustment for morale level of the force. These points reflect a German morale of 8/7, and a Soviet morale of 7/5. Increasing the second number in the morale level increases point cost by 20%, reducing it by one point decreases unit cost by 20%, i.e. buying German infantry at 8/6 would cost 19 points per platoon, and buying Soviet infantry at 7/6 would cost 18 points per platoon.

[plloyd1010]

I'm not deciphering the formula here. It might be useful to attach a scan of the PG1 point sheet.
C&C:WE has these values:

• Ger INF = 8
  
• Ger HMG = 12
  
• Sov INF = 6
  
• Sov HMG = 10
  

The values have changed over the years, of course. Another thing that has change in C&C, is that now there are AFV and non-AFV purchase points. Some units become more expensive, or even unavailable, as you buy increasing numbers of them.

Since you want to start with infantry, how about this. Base cost for infantry types is DF strength) + (1 hex fire table value) + (extend fire table value * (range/5 round up) + some mobility number TBD.
This makes numbers like this:

• Ger INF = 18 + (something)
  
• Ger HMG = 29 + (something)
  
• Sov INF = 15 + (something)
  
• Sov HMG = 27 + (something)
  

Then scale the number to morale levels? or scale the purchase points?

BtW: Do remember Situation X? It was kind of cool, especially the PL version.

[larry marak]

Fondly, the situation X scenario building system let you run wild with Panzerblitz

[larry marak]

Shoot, typed out the whole thing and hit the refresh button instead of the decimal point in my final keystroke!

[larry marak]

Soviet units

INF 15
HMG 31
SMG 14
RECON 16
ENG 25
82MTR 13
120MTR 18
37AA 45
45ATG 14
76.2H ON MAP 47
76.2H OFF MAP 22
CAV 18
BA-10M 59
BT-7 78
T-26 68
T-28 78
T-60 55
T-34 112
KV-1 108
KV-2 211
T-35 137
RIVER MONITOR 81
ARMORED TRAIN 106
AIRCRAFT 13
TRUCK 24
WAGON 9
COL 150
LTCOL 140
MAJ 120
CAPT 100
LT 60
SGT 50
KOM 60

XXXXXXXXX


GERMAN

INF 24
HMG 51
ENG 55
CAV 21
20AA 48
37ATG 21
81MTR 14
88AA 90
105H ON MAP 77
105H OFF MAP 47
75IG 51
150IG 132
150IG SP 155
SDFZ 222 69
PZII 65
PZIIIF 105
PZIVE 155
SGIIIB 139
PZ VI 213
SDFZ 250/10 96
AIRCRAFT 16
COL 200
LT COL 170
MAJ 140
CAPT 120
LT 75
SGT 60
CPL 45

There were two types of situation x's for PG, attacker vs defender, and meeting engagement.

In the Attacker vs Defender scenrios, each player roled 1d6 to determine what fraction of their purchase points were secretly available...to encourage variation in play.

Point Modifier Table

die attacker defender
1 0.8 0.4
2 0.9 0.5
3 1.0 0.6
4 1.1 0.7
5 1.2 0.8
6 1.3 0.9

Obviously the point modifier table can be changed for more variability in later use when wanted.

And this is how I played most of my PG games using PG 1st edition.

[plloyd1010]

Do you these values been reflective of a given unit's value? it's a starting point, we may want to scale them down for smaller totals. We might look at SP:WaW purchase points too. They have a very comprehensive list, but it is a different system.

In PB/PL situation X, you get a mission (which you kept secret), so did you opponent. The objective and purchase point total came with the mission. You played until neither side could or had achieved their objective. To balance the scenario there was an alternative victory object based on relative purchase points. For example, assume one player had an assault and hold (Control 5 of the 6 half boards) with 200 points, and the other has a recon in force objective with 400 points, the alternative victory might be to prevent the first player from winning until turn 8.

[vince hughes]

Larry. Russian infantry only have a range of 2 and not 3