Saipan 1944

[waynebaumber]

Andrew,

I don't think you need to do all that hard work just a disclaimer at he start of the AAR would suffice. I have no problem with designers doing AAR's if its clearly stated that they have a vested interest in the game. Let's face it authors do it on Amazon and restaurants/hotels do it on Trip adviser without any disclosure. Personally scenario ratings don't mean a lot to me until at least 5 plus plays have been recorded so if Jay has been shall we say "over enthusiastic" in his markings, very natural in my opinion, then the other 4 plays should bring a truer reflection of how good the scenario is.

Peace and Happiness

[larry marak]

"if Jay has been shall we say "over enthusiastic" in his markings, very natural in my opinion, then the other 4 plays should bring a truer reflection"

In the interest of helping us all get along, I will gladly do rate all scenarios either 1 or 2 to neutralize designer bias :-}

Seriously, Wayne is right here, this is a hobby forum, not rocket science. The ratings are not as valuable as AARs in learning about a scenario. We need Vince to play these and write up reviews in his patented "You Are There" style.

Vince, "You Are There" was a famous series of historical recreation television programs hosted by the legendary American newscaster Walter Cronkheit 5 decades ago.

God I'm getting old. Somebody shoot me.......

[Hugmenot]

I am uncertain I understand Vince's concern.

Vince, are you saying the high ratings from a designer may lead a consumer into purchasing a product he may not have otherwise purchased?

[vince hughes]

I am uncertain I understand Vince's concern.

Vince, are you saying the high ratings from a designer may lead a consumer into purchasing a product he may not have otherwise purchased?

No I'm not Hug

[JayTownsend]

Guys, that is why I created the: Designer ranking his own scenarios poll, in another folder, here on PG HQ a month ago!

[Hugmenot]

Do you remember Roger Freed, Vince? Although he almost hit .400 one year (33 for 83 in 1977), I don't think anyone expected him to maintain his numbers the next season. I think the same applies to Nihon Silk and I expect we will soon have more data points to gauge the product. I. for one, will likely play at least 2 or 3 scenarios because they all fit on my playing table and the average number of counters is in the range preference.

I also ordered Saipan and I am very curious to try a scenario with the 10-3 marines.

[JayTownsend]

I want to see the new maps!

All the scenarios in Saipan should be in your playable range Hugmenot, with 1-4 maps per scenario and counters ranging from about 12-158.

[Shad]

Can we get over this now?

Shad,

You are now beginning to sound like somebody who wishes to stop opinion being expressed here, somethiing you bemoan other forums and sites for doing

There is no 'getting over' the fact that a complete set of 4 and 5 ratings for a WHOLE set from the developer of THAT set. Its plain daft. Furthermore, it makes a nonsense of the whole point of the HQ. So much work (man-hours) has been put in by many people and of course, most of all by you and yet, for all that, you are going to have a 'rogue' rating for an 'expansion' sitting atop the pile. (Rogue being the partisanship and not the person btw).

To date, the best 'expansions' rate 3.91 down to 3.88 for third spot. They then go down to 3.56 for 10th. Nihon Silk is showing 4.36 a whole half point above the best or a full 12.5% more points. I'm certainly not going to let this point go until some sensibility is restored here, or the game is proven by us the plebiscite to rate that high. Other developers flatly refuse to rate their scenarios and I know that as a fact.

Instead of 'getting over' this, then the riposte is clearly

"Can we get realistic with this now"

Sorry to to be brusque, but I felt the last line on your post was brusque also.

I agree it's daft: they should all be 5's. Otherwise the developer is admitting that he didn't give his best effort and/or turned in shoddy work.

While I respect your attention to statistical detail, I do not share your concern that some wholly ignorant (they'd have to be) potential customer will get burned by one developer rating per scenario and buy the wrong item. Nor do I lose sleep that those scenarios will somehow get a leg-up over other scenarios in the rankings because we do, afterall, require a 5 vote minimum, an arbitrary cutoff which we could arbitrarily raise at any time.

In a hypothetical situation where Jay rates dogshit a 5 and four others rate it a 1, you're averaging out to a 1.8 -- still quite clearly dogshit. This isn't euros vs. wargamer drama on BGG with hundreds of BS votes dude.

To me, this is much ado about nothing, and detracts from the credit Jay should be receiving for his dedication to this series.

You are now beginning to sound like somebody who wishes to stop opinion being expressed here, somethiing you bemoan other forums and sites for doing

Nonsense and you know it!

[vince hughes]

Before I continue, I think, judging by the posts above that we should apply some 'relativity' here:

Lines from Andrew such as "Lose sleep" and "Much ado about nothing" are dismissive lines being applied to this subject when comparing the discussion with such serious matters as World Hunger or whether Israel should independently nuke Iran ?

Well of course this discussion is irrelavant and trivial when compared to such Worldly matters. However, as an individual, I'm certainly quite able to compartmentalise subject matter, their pecking order and where the discussion belongs. As this IS the PG-HQ Forum, then it IS the right place to discuss the subject ? So there's the perspective for the discussion, lets try and retain that perspective. If I suddenly find that family are without a house or I've been sacked, I'll deal with it accordingly in its meritorious order of life matters :-)

[vince hughes]

At Larry

I sincerely hope nobody thinks we are not getting along. Its a discussion as far as I am concerened and have no desire to stab anybody at this stage.... Hehe !

At Hugs

On Roger Freed vis a vis levelling out of ratings. Lol, I know like me you play replay baseball games and they are more 'statified' than anything out there. Of course there will be a levelling off as you say, but I guess the two major differences with the Roger Freed analogy and the NS ratings are that:

None of the other developers products had a leg-up on scores before their ratings began clocking in.

Also, I guess its also fair to say that Roger Freed was also not able to 'select' his .400 batting average beforehand and did actually have to achieve it under competitive conditions unike Nihon Silks ratings that have not been tested under such (by other players).

On Customers:

Both Shad and Hugs have mentioned customers or potential customers. I never have mentioned customers or brought that into the conversation at all, so not sure where any percieved concern on my part on this has materialised.

I just think that the naturalised ratings of other players experiences should let the snow-flake of a game/supplement settle where it will land on its own.

At Andrew

Where you say that designers SHOULD be rating their scenarios as 5's, see a copy of my comment from post # 10 on Jay's "Designer Rating Scenarios" thread... copy below:

By Vince """"" But on the other hand, rate a 4 or less and then its "WTF are you turning in scenarios of less than brilliant when you KNEW them not be brilliant. Why submit such dross" ? """

So you can see here Andrew, that is exactly what I said too and we are on the same page, and it is this very reason why I think its pointless (no pun intended on the word pointless) for the designer to rate them because they simply can not be neutral ratings.

Finally, I would be very surprised if such conversations actually detract from Jay's efforts with these products. That would be incredible if true. As PG grognards, we are all well aware of Jay's Joie de vie for the system and have myself expressed excitement on the expectant arrival of the times two package of Japanese and Pacific items. But as it is a forum, I will certainly continue to raise discussion points on said forum title until banned or deceased :-) In fcat, won't be much of a forum without interesting and debatable issues,

And yes, re: gagging - I knew it was nonsense but it drew the parry as desired.