APCs receiving DF & BF?

[triangular_cube]

I dug around and found the old link to the 3rd edition overview when the change as made, introducing combat units, and  changing how APCs are impacted on the charts. This part did not change in 4th.  Doug McNair discusses the concept directly. You might find it insightful. 

http://avalanchepress.com/PG3Overview.php

From the looks of it, many of you may be giving the APCs unintended benefits on those X results...

[Grognard Gunny]

I read the article.... it sounds like APCs take losses like the rest of the transport family... i.e. they take "X", "2X" and "3X" when fighting with the infantry per the current rules. When they fight alone... do they fight as AFVs and are only afforded AT damages or do they continue to fight as transports?

GG

[Grognard Gunny]

From all that I can gather, open-topped APCs are just like combat units, except they can stack with foot units in excess of the normal three unit stacking limitations.... AND can be fired at with AT guns too. Aside from that......

This solves a couple of problems but conflict with the admonitions against firing at "armored" units with anything but AT weapons.

It's a circle, no?

GG

[triangular_cube]

I read the article.... it sounds like APCs take losses like the rest of the transport family... i.e. they take "X", "2X" and "3X" when fighting with the infantry per the current rules. When they fight alone... do they fight as AFVs and are only afforded AT damages or do they continue to fight as transports?

GG

Well on DF/BF the X result breaks down into A and B where A is referring to combat units, and B is referring to unarmed transports (wording differed for B between 3rd and 4th, but they mean the same thing). So when you say "APCs take losses like the rest of the transport family" I don't know exactly what you mean, but I would tend to say no, as that to me speaks to part B which is in addition to part A. APCs take DF/BF losses on X as per part A as an open topped combat unit. 

I'm also not quite sure what you are describing with the rest of the post with fighting alone or with infantry. APCs can ALSO be fired on with the AT fire chart if that's what you are asking.

[triangular_cube]

From all that I can gather, open-topped APCs are just like combat units, except they can stack with foot units in excess of the normal three unit stacking limitations.... AND can be fired at with AT guns too. Aside from that......

This solves a couple of problems but conflict with the admonitions against firing at "armored" units with anything but AT weapons.

It's a circle, no?

GG

Some of the wording is a bit clumsy I suppose. Keep in mind in 2nd edition, APCs were far less vulnerable, as aside from Battle of the Bulge module special rules, there wasn't an Open/Closed top distinction, and they generally were immune to DF/BF aside from M results via X (not to confuse you more). 3rd edition, being written from 2nd kind of inherited some of that wording although the immunity became a bit more conditional for open tops. 4th then carried the concept over. The charts themselves did try to specify but it s how we got there I suppose.

[Grognard Gunny]

I suspect a simple -1 column adjustment when firing at Open-topped APC (loaded or not) on the DF and BF tables would be the simplest solution. That should cover ALL the contingencies for them (APCs). Comments?

GG

[cjsiam]

I think Triangle has pointed out that the "X" impacts any Combat units that are NOT Closed Top AFV....That is actually pretty Clearly stated...

So the OPEN-TOP would take a loss on an X result (or the owner could choose that)....it just says "one combat unit"  that is Not Closed Top AFV.

on the #X they MUST take one from the OpenTop....

With Both all non-Closed Top AFV remaining take M2.....Closed Top AFVs take an M...