Ancient Rules Ambiguity: When does "play" begin?

[triangular_cube]

Next up on my playthrough of the old stuff is Edelweiss # 11. At first glance set up seems to be important as it is a race off the map scenario. 

Soviet setup instructions are normal "set up within X hexes" type. 

Germans enter the board with a special rule that reads, " Escape and Evasion. Before play begins, the German player notes the edge (north , south, east, or west) from which each group will enter play... "

So the question becomes, when does "play" begin? Does play begin with turn 1, thus the German can see the Soviet setup prior to selecting the edges to enter from? Does "play" begin prior to setup, and thus they cant?

I'm leaning towards "play" beginning on turn 1, and allowing the Germans to see the Soviet setup prior to selecting the edge. 

Any one else have any thoughts?

[Schoenwulf]

That's the way I'd play it. Tough to escape from and evade what one can't see, so the way you've suggested makes the most sense.

[triangular_cube]

That's the way I'd play it. Tough to escape from and evade what one can't see, so the way you've suggested makes the most sense.

In this case it is the Soviets, who begin on the board, who are attempting to evade the Germans who are entering. 

I guess I was entering into this thinking from the German perspective, rather than the Soviet one. The question there is, does the Soviet player see the German edge selections before setting up?

I guess its either:

1) Play begins prior to set up. Germans "note the edges" (assuming! this is visible info the the Soviets) with no knowledge of the Soviet Setup. Soviets place units. Turn 1 begins. Germans enter from noted edges. 

2) Soviets set up on board. Germans "note the edges" after seeing Soviet set up. Turn 1 begins. Germans enter from the noted edges. 

3) Something else entirely.

[plloyd1010]

I would lean toward deciding the entry map edges before play begins. This is because the Soviets appear to be in a couple of hedgehog positions. It also appears that the penal units are treated as normal infantry (not being forced to advance on the enemy).

In the rewrite from Edelweiss expanded:

• The penal troops are replaced with infantry.
  
• The entry map edges are specified.
  
• The map area is much bigger.
  

[triangular_cube]

I would lean toward deciding the entry map edges before play begins. This is because the Soviets appear to be in a couple of hedgehog positions. It also appears that the penal units are treated as normal infantry (not being forced to advance on the enemy).

In the rewrite from Edelweiss expanded:

• The penal troops are replaced with infantry.
  
• The entry map edges are specified.
  
• The map area is much bigger.
  

"I would lean toward deciding the entry map edges before play begins."

Yes, I am trying to determine when that is 

[plloyd1010]

I guess I reiterate the issue, opining on it. I think the Axis should decide entry map sides before the Soviets setup. Otherwise wouldn't it be rather pointless to write them down?

[cjsiam]

But the soviets don't know where the Axis will enter...

But the Axis does not get to modify after the Soviet set up....

That would seem to be the spirit of intent...

[triangular_cube]

I guess I reiterate the issue, opining on it. I think the Axis should decide entry map sides before the Soviets setup. Otherwise wouldn't it be rather pointless to write them down?

Thanks for the reply. I think I'll go with that. 

It may seem like I am splitting hairs, and I probably am, but the whole map gets converted to forest hexes so 2-3 hexes can represent 2-3 turns of movement for some of these units.

[triangular_cube]

But the soviets don't know where the Axis will enter...

But the Axis does not get to modify after the Soviet set up....

That would seem to be the spirit of intent...

I guess that makes sense. Effectively hidden info for both players during setup.

[Schoenwulf]

In this case it is the Soviets, who begin on the board, who are attempting to evade the Germans who are entering. 

Then it definitely makes sense for the Germans to pick their position first so the Soviets know where to escape and evade.