LOS Question from Hill

[cjsiam]

I contend that in the attached image the hiding mortar (in 0912) can SEE--has an unblocked LOS-- the stack of
russian mortars in 0208.

The LOS is not blocked---the Yellow arrow is the hill line 1 hex from the firing unit....
A unit in the red arrow hex would be out of LOS
Units in any of the other hexes are ># of hexes from slope hex then observing unit, thus they are visible....

I think that is how the rule reads.....
#1) Am I correct according to RAW

#2) I have heard/seen another "method" (Peter?) using slope before and behind the observing unit--where is that written?
  and how do we establish which we use--what do we call that rule?  (is there a PG-HQ Optional Rules page?)

thanks!

[plloyd1010]

1. Yes. Per RaW there is line of sight.
   
2. Yes, you did here of something else. Yes it was me.
   

This is the rule I created:
8.3.4 Presumed Crest Lines
The LOS between units of different elevations is blocked if the higher unit is behind the crest of the hill. If the highest unit has a higher elevation line behind it, which is also on the same hill, the units are in LOS of each other.
Not a perfect solution, but quite workable.

Keep in mind, if you are teaching someone the game, stay RaW.

[cjsiam]

1) I'm not crazy
1* about this anyway
2) That's what I described

Peter do you mean NOT in line of sight of each other?
In your rule interpretation I think they are in LOS....with this small hill...only one level.

[plloyd1010]

By my rule, there is no line of sight.
What I said was, "Yes, you did hear of another rule." (I typo-ed it.)

[leonard]

Is the red arrow hex out of LOS ? I don’t think so. If the distance from the slope to the target is strictly less than the one from firer to slope, then it is blocked. No ??

[plloyd1010]

Philippe, I presume you are referring to the effect of my crest rule. The hex indicated by the red and those of the green arrows would be out of LOS of hex 0812. That is because, extending the LOS path behind 0812, there is no higher terrain of that hill behind 0812, and there are fewer 20-meter hexes (0) behind 0812 than there are in front of it(1).

The reality is that one cannot see anything below the hill when looking across the top.

[Michael Murphy]

Is the red arrow hex out of LOS ? I don’t think so. If the distance from the slope to the target is strictly less than the one from firer to slope, then it is blocked. No ??

To be honest, that is the one thing that popped out at me when I first read this thread. 

Using rule 8.42, the Line of Sight is BLOCKED if both the spotting and target hex are on DIFFERENT elevations and (second bullet) – one or more slope hexes of the same elevation as the higher unit lies between the two hexes and the slope hex is closer (not equidistant) to the lower unit than the higher one.

In the present example, the one slope hex between the two hexes in question is a same level slope hex and it is equidistant to both hexes.

The second LOS example illustration in the rule book (near rule 8.46 in my copy) shows two similar situations (G-H and G-K). While the book didn't address the G-H LOS, the G-K LOS is specifically permissible in that hex 0908 in the example is equidistant to both hexes.

Peace. Michael

[cjsiam]

Michael/Phillipe--I think you are both right---I squat corrected...

The Red Arrow IS in LOS...as a target unit there is "1 hex" from the slope hex, just like the Firing unit.....
The diagram causes the eye's interpretation of the terrain to vary from the letter of the rules....

Which might further justify using something like Peter's modified LOS from Hill rules......

My apologies in my erroneous red arrow....in RAW ALL hexes along that line are visible...in fact there is NO hill shadow at all in any direction from that
mortars position......

thank you

[leonard]

Agreed, Michael !
Of course, the situation would be very different -and more realistic- if adopting Peter’s rule...

[J6A]

If one does not assume pancake hills, and that units in hill hexes take advantage of the highest point in that hill hex, then the LOS rules make a lot more sense.  To me, a 20m hill really goes from about 10m - 30m.