Soviet KMS Prime Mover and Firing....

[cjsiam]

5.67 discusses transports being able to fire while loaded....

5.63 discusses weapons units which start their turn loaded/limbered may spend a Move Activation--the full turn and unload/unlimber....
and the transport may move or load another unit....

So---if my KMS is dropping the loaded/limbered AT gun----can it fire it's hearty 2-4 MGs at the neighboring hex?
I can move....so can I fire?

I'm not seeing why not---the KMS is effectively "absolved" of having to spend activation time with the unloading AT gun...so
if it can move---can it not Fire instead?

inquiring minds....
cj

[plloyd1010]

I don't think so. Unloading the gun is a movement action.

[Hugmenot]

Peter is correct but maybe 3.13 should have been more precise and add loading/unloading to the list of Movement actions. The issue is unloading a limbered weapon unit costs 0 movement points and thus there can be some confusion whether it is a movement action if the transport unit does not move at all this activation.

3.13 Unit Actions
The activated unit, leader or group performs actions in no specific order, but all actions must be designated before the first is performed. Actions are either Movement or Fire. Players need not pre-designate directions or targets - they just state which units will move and which will fire this action segment.

"Movement" includes moving (5.0), digging in (16.2), limbering/unlimbering (5.63) or attempting to recover morale (14.4). "Fire" includes direct fire (10.0), bombardment (9.0), anti-tank fire (11.0) and assault (12.0, even though initiating or joining an assault involves moving into the assault hex).

Once units are done moving and firing, mark them with Moved/Fired markers. Units marked with Moved/Fired markers may not activate again in the current turn except through Random Events (see Optional Rules).

[cjsiam]

Peter is correct but maybe 3.13 should have been more precise and add loading/unloading to the list of Movement actions. The issue is unloading a limbered weapon unit costs 0 movement points and thus there can be some confusion whether it is a movement action if the transport unit does not move at all this activation.

3.13 Unit Actions
The activated unit, leader or group performs actions in no specific order, but all actions must be designated before the first is performed. Actions are either Movement or Fire. Players need not pre-designate directions or targets - they just state which units will move and which will fire this action segment.

"Movement" includes moving (5.0), digging in (16.2), limbering/unlimbering (5.63) or attempting to recover morale (14.4). "Fire" includes direct fire (10.0), bombardment (9.0), anti-tank fire (11.0) and assault (12.0, even though initiating or joining an assault involves moving into the assault hex).

Once units are done moving and firing, mark them with Moved/Fired markers. Units marked with Moved/Fired markers may not activate again in the current turn except through Random Events (see Optional Rules).

Hugmenot...
If you look at 3.3 it does not say anything about the transport...only the weapon...

So...the only thing I can see clearly is that the description in 5.63 does not say fire--thus a rigorous interpretation, not troubled with rationalizing, would say cannot fire. RAW.

But, if I'm free to drive away...I think I should be free to shoot....

[Poor Yorek]

5.6 Once loaded, the transport unit and everything it carries count as one unit for stacking, movement and combat purposes.

So the transport and the weapon are both carrying out the move action of "limbering/unlimbering."  Being free to move (hexes) is a continuation of the declared move action; fire is a different class of action.

[cjsiam]

5.6 Once loaded, the transport unit and everything it carries count as one unit for stacking, movement and combat purposes.

So the transport and the weapon are both carrying out the move action of "limbering/unlimbering."  Being free to move (hexes) is a continuation of the declared move action; fire is a different class of action.

Why? what does it mean to be "a different class of action" if on one hand I can drive away at full speed unencumbered by
the fact that I was "unloading"?? Classes of actions are defined to help delineate actions possible...It is pretty easy to say "a transport may choose to FIRE if it is unloading
a weapon as it is freed of encumbrance in doing so" Otherwise the "can move" needs to be struck....you are either busy, and can't fire, or you're not busy and can....

why is it harder for my platoon to use the weapons on their equipment to cover the unloading by firing their guns at an enemy?

The only rationale I hear as yet is "because that's the way it was written"....I have yet to hear anything which addresses the
issues of "you can drive away at full speed, but you can't shoot"....

So---IF we don't want to explore the conundrum (and it's there...) then ok...that's the way it is...the rules say so---regardless of what might happen in 15min...

As a question -- what is the recourse to change the rules?
To get a modification from "the rule god"...and I'm assuming that would be Dr. Mike?
Is there a process (or should there be) to clarify with rationale such a situation?

I don't want to be difficult, but I'd like a rationale that holds up to what a group of professionals would do in the 15minutes of time
if they are NOT required to assist in unloading....(which they clearly are not if they can drive away at full speed)....
Why can they not instead stay in place and shoot their machine guns?

[Poor Yorek]

5.6 Once loaded, the transport unit and everything it carries count as one unit for stacking, movement and combat purposes.

So the transport and the weapon are both carrying out the move action of "limbering/unlimbering."  Being free to move (hexes) is a continuation of the declared move action; fire is a different class of action.

Why? 

The only rationale I hear as yet is "because that's the way it was written"....I have yet to hear anything which addresses the
issues of "you can drive away at full speed, but you can't shoot"....

The answer to this type of response is simple.  You want to home rule something different, you are free to do so.  You want to play with someone else and they agree to those home rules, fine.  You want to play with someone else with RAW, then the rules are what they are (with all of their foibles).  

You do realize that this is a game, do you not, and that some compromises for rule integrity and simplicity might be necessary in lieu of "realism"?  If we started listing every deviation from reality in a PG ruleset, this thread would run for quite some time and PG would devolve into "Squad Leader for Tanks."    

[Hugmenot]

As a question -- what is the recourse to change the rules?
To get a modification from "the rule god"...and I'm assuming that would be Dr. Mike?
Is there a process (or should there be) to clarify with rationale such a situation?

I don't want to be difficult, but I'd like a rationale that holds up to what a group of professionals would do in the 15minutes of time
if they are NOT required to assist in unloading....(which they clearly are not if they can drive away at full speed)....
Why can they not instead stay in place and shoot their machine guns?

The main developer reads these forums so he will be aware of your questions if and when he is asked to write the version 5.0 of the rules (that's assuming he accepts the task).

Dr. Mike may take that task himself some day but considering how many hours I spent revising and fleshing out his rules for Land Cruisers and River Fleets, I am not sure he will have time. Rules writing is difficult, at least for me, and it would take me a few hundred hours at a minimum to write a version 5.0 of the rules.

Keep in mind the PG series are not using living rules. There are pros and and cons publishing living rules and the publisher decided that, for the series as a whole, the cons outweighted the pros.. Avalanche publishes errata and clarifications for specific game modules on their website.

I can see your point and even the rules as written are not 100% clear to me because loading and unloading a weapon unit are not listed as a Movement Actions (limbering and unlimbering are) and unloading a weapon unit costs 0 movement point. I do note loading and unloading is under 5.6 Transport which itself is under 5.0 Movement.

I don't think you will find a rationale other than maybe the transport unit is finding the best cover in the hex to unload the units as safely as possible. Hexes are big, turns are 15 minutes, and units don't take their activation simultaneously so some abstractions are needed. If a specific situation is not believable enough for you, make a house rule; the system is pretty resilient and I am aware of a few players adding house rules without loss of enjoyment.

[cjsiam]

Yorek and Hug, thank you for the perspectives.

I recognize that the general interpretation of the rule is that the transport may either sit in hex and do nothing (while the OTHER unit) unloads,
  or it can drive away.
that seems to be the "accepted" interpretations of the rules.

But.

Transport is a special class....it's actions (unlike almost any other unit type I can think of) involves the actions of another unit....
whether that is a loading inf (1MP) unloading inf (1MP) both moves...... or a loading Weapon(full turn) or unloading weapon(where we are)....

I think a house rule that a transport can fire it's weapons when it is spending the full turn in the hex--whether it is loading or unloading 
seems appropriate---that does not mean it can move--drop and inf and fire---that would be a move activiation...

But if it was loading (for a full turn) a weapon or inf---it could fire as it loaded....that would be a Fire/while loading.
If it was unloading (for a full turn immobile) a weapon or an inf---if could fire as it unloaded....that would be a Fire/while unloading.
In all cases the OTHER unit would be under a move activation.

So the only caveat to the existing system is a rule that says 
"A transport unit which remains stationary during an activation my load or unload, and still fire it's weapons--marked with a Fire if it does so"....
I think this would also mean a transport which does not move, and participates in OP fire, can still unload on it's activation...
A fire activation does not preclude loading/unloading--for a transport....

I think that reflects how a platoon of armed transports would behave in the situation....

But, like you say---it'd be a house rule....

Do we have a "place where house rules can be proposed/debated/cataloged" within the forum?
As the system evolves....the issue of publishing paper cannot keep up with the discoveries...
Where might we find Rules Errata?
I shall look

thanks again for your insights.
cj

[leonard]

Yorek and Hug, thank you for the perspectives.

I recognize that the general interpretation of the rule is that the transport may either sit in hex and do nothing (while the OTHER unit) unloads,
  or it can drive away.
that seems to be the "accepted" interpretations of the rules.

But.

Transport is a special class....it's actions (unlike almost any other unit type I can think of) involves the actions of another unit....
whether that is a loading inf (1MP) unloading inf (1MP) both moves...... or a loading Weapon(full turn) or unloading weapon(where we are)....

I think a house rule that a transport can fire it's weapons when it is spending the full turn in the hex--whether it is loading or unloading 
seems appropriate---that does not mean it can move--drop and inf and fire---that would be a move activiation...

Why don’t you opt for the Fire & Move optional rule ?