Assault frustration

[Blackcloud6]

I just finished the first scenario from Invasion 44 and my usually frustration with "take the town" scenarios came up again.  Turn and after turn of assaults against the town hexes and the entrenchment hex did nothing.  I get the Germans either disrupted or even demoralized in the hex but by begin 8 morale troops with good leaders they simply recover and the process starts all over again.   Turns of nothing but die rolling make for little fun.  This is about how 99% of scenarios I play with high morel defenders in towns go.  The attackers never win.

So how are these 8 morale ubermensch beaten in towns and entrenchments?  Can someone show a turn by turn tactic that actually works?

Frankly, I'm about to pitch PG because of this and move on to something else like Nations at War or go back to Panzer Leader because I perceive the assault is a severely broken mechanic that greatly affects most of the scenarios.

[JayTownsend]

Frankly in the situation you mentioned, I prefer to attack town or entrenched units with higher moral with nice multi stacks of adjacent units using direct fire before I ever use assault combat. Unless I have engineers mixed with infantry, APCs or tanks or I am desperate for time and just want to risk it on the last couple of turns.

[richvalle]

Frankly in the situation you mentioned, I prefer to attack town or entrenched units with higher moral with nice multi stacks of adjacent units using direct fire before I ever use assault combat. Unless I have engineers mixed with infantry, APCs or tanks or I am desperate for time and just want to risk it on the last couple of turns.

This. They need to be softened up first which PG usually gives you enough time to do. 

It can be tricky if they have a lot of OBA to pound you with while you are out in the open. 

[plloyd1010]

Fred, this is an odd complaint when it comes from you. It is more like I would expect from the “walk with heroes”, Rommel syndrome types. Anyway, I usually have the best results when I use the army the way it was historically designed.

The WW2 British army is designed for attrition battles. Not attrition as in I shoot your guy, you shoot mine, and we see who can put up with it the longest. It is a you if you twice, I shoot trice. You throw 10 lbs. of dynamite, I throw 20. BtW: The Americans are using that model at the time, but with extra vitamins. Even though PG tends to blur the lines between assault, maneuver and attritional armies, the basic design seems to hold true.

So, basic plan, don’t press assaults you don’t have to. Work on spreading the Germans and concentrating firepower on specific points. That said, there are 2 disrupters that need to be located and dealt with. That 88AA gun is number 1. Lead with an infantry screen, and make sure it is 9 hexes away, and when you find it, kill it with artillery (arty won’t much else for you in this game anyway). Second is the AT gun, not as bad, but could be a problem. Your first killer group is the ARVE, 2 RIF and a WPN, leader with a CM goes with the ARVE stack. A couple other teams are helpful. Put all the mortars together in 2 adjacent stacks, with another CM (lower moral).

Basic plan: Mortars suppresses primary target. ARVE team buries primary target under fire. Infantry scouting finds disrupters, artillery suppresses/kills them. Secondary fire teams support as they are able. Only assault easy targets (not many), but never with the ARVE team.

Working objective: Consolidate board 57. Get another net 18 points. Short order of the day, kill Germans, then kill some more. No dancing! (Takes too long.) Probably not marching off board (Not likely to have enough time.)

See how that sort of a battle works for the British. (You know the British are on the short end of this one, right?)

[Blackcloud6]

Frankly in the situation you mentioned, I prefer to attack town or entrenched units with higher moral with nice multi stacks of adjacent units using direct fire before I ever use assault combat. Unless I have engineers mixed with infantry, APCs or tanks or I am desperate for time and just want to risk it on the last couple of turns.

Well, you can't use higher morale units when you don't have them.  In this scenario the German full units are 8 and the US one's 7.  And leaders won't even it out.

And yes, I 'softened them up for, for many turns,. it took turns because they simply recovered being in a town/entrenchment with leader upping their morale, they become tens.   Once they were disrupted and/or demoralized, the assault went in and still couldn't win.  The Germans simply recover each turn and then come back stronger sometimes the next turn than the attacking Americans due to US casualties.  The WN67 was even worse by being entrenched the Germans get first fire.  I had it surrounded and still couldn't break it.

Every game of PG that has 8 morale defenders in towns and entrenchment plays out this way no matter what I try.  And it ends up being turn after turn of nothing but dice rolling.  There is no skill in that, nor fun after a while.  So the dice win the game, not the player.  I've not liked this aspect of the game since the 1990s.   And its getting to be a killer for me.

[Blackcloud6]

Fred, this is an odd complaint when it comes from you. It is more like I would expect from the “walk with heroes”, Rommel syndrome types. Anyway, I usually have the best results when I use the army the way it was historically designed.

The WW2 British army is designed for attrition battles. Not attrition as in I shoot your guy, you shoot mine, and we see who can put up with it the longest. It is a you if you twice, I shoot trice. You throw 10 lbs. of dynamite, I throw 20. BtW: The Americans are using that model at the time, but with extra vitamins. Even though PG tends to blur the lines between assault, maneuver and attritional armies, the basic design seems to hold true.

So, basic plan, don’t press assaults you don’t have to. Work on spreading the Germans and concentrating firepower on specific points. That said, there are 2 disrupters that need to be located and dealt with. That 88AA gun is number 1. Lead with an infantry screen, and make sure it is 9 hexes away, and when you find it, kill it with artillery (arty won’t much else for you in this game anyway). Second is the AT gun, not as bad, but could be a problem. Your first killer group is the ARVE, 2 RIF and a WPN, leader with a CM goes with the ARVE stack. A couple other teams are helpful. Put all the mortars together in 2 adjacent stacks, with another CM (lower moral).

Basic plan: Mortars suppresses primary target. ARVE team buries primary target under fire. Infantry scouting finds disrupters, artillery suppresses/kills them. Secondary fire teams support as they are able. Only assault easy targets (not many), but never with the ARVE team.

Working objective: Consolidate board 57. Get another net 18 points. Short order of the day, kill Germans, then kill some more. No dancing! (Takes too long.) Probably not marching off board (Not likely to have enough time.)

See how that sort of a battle works for the British. (You know the British are on the short end of this one, right?)

This is the first scenario of Invasion 44, not Liberation 44.  Americans v German, take a town and WN67 (an entrenchment).

[Blackcloud6]

Frankly in the situation you mentioned, I prefer to attack town or entrenched units with higher moral with nice multi stacks of adjacent units using direct fire before I ever use assault combat. Unless I have engineers mixed with infantry, APCs or tanks or I am desperate for time and just want to risk it on the last couple of turns.

This. They need to be softened up first which PG usually gives you enough time to do. 

It can be tricky if they have a lot of OBA to pound you with while you are out in the open. 

See my reply to Jay above.  The system is in favor of the defender with high morale as you are more likely to roll the recovery die role than the attacker is to roll a casualty die roll.  So I find that town/entrenchment assaults play out almost the same no matter what unless the attacker gets lucky snakes or boxers to kill the defenders.  It is very tedious to play these assaults out and I tend to avoid these scenario because they all end up playing the same in the last half of the game, rolling and rolling to resolve the assault.

[plloyd1010]

This is the first scenario of Invasion 44, not Liberation 44.  Americans v German, take a town and WN67 (an entrenchment).

Oops, my bad. I noticed that it is functional OR not AND.

Do notice how I described the U.S. army at this point. 32DF rips up a hedgerow or entrenchment really fast. Fight the American way, give your ammo to the enemy (lots of it). I think I would pick on WN67. Either way, assault is not a good plan, isolate and shoot up the weakest. I understand this as a PG problem too, got to attack in the GIFU with 132nd (Illinois National Guard). When it comes to the Americans, use the tubes, not the points.

[Blackcloud6]

This is the first scenario of Invasion 44, not Liberation 44.  Americans v German, take a town and WN67 (an entrenchment).

Oops, my bad. I noticed that it is functional OR not AND.

Do notice how I described the U.S. army at this point. 32DF rips up a hedgerow or entrenchment really fast. Fight the American way, give your ammo to the enemy (lots of it). I think I would pick on WN67. Either way, assault is not a good plan, isolate and shoot up the weakest. I understand this as a PG problem too, got to attack in the GIFU with 132nd (Illinois National Guard). When it comes to the Americans, use the tubes, not the points.

Well, it is take both for the decisive win.   Who would try for less?     But OK, so you say simply roll up and get as many GIs next to Jerry and pound away at him until he gone, eh?  In time there should be enough hits to get jerry so unhappy the next shot vaporizes him or he surrenders, right?    OK, scenario 2 is another take the town scenario with even more uber Germans, the paras are 8/8.  I'll try what you say and see what happens, I have nothing else to do today.

[plloyd1010]

Well, it is take both for the decisive win.   Who would try for less? 

I tend to play for the minor victory first, especially in this case. Trying for the major victory right off will usually dilute your force and could leave you over exposed. If the opportunity comes up, sure get'um both.

Generally your assessment of what I would do with the Americans is correct. Get as close as reasonable and blast way. The other thing I said was isolate the position as much as possible, I don't like Sevastopol sieges. What combination of isolation methods (block/fire/time) you use (if you can) is situational.

I would go for Les Fresnes. It is 5 turn (infantry only march) to isolate it. 2 big INF/HMG fire teams should reduce it pretty quickly. Fallschirmjagers look to be 7-8 turns away. Make them attack you. If you can beat them early, grab the other town.