Direct Fire with range exceeding 12

[triangular_cube]

Could I get some clarification on how this is actually played? It finally came up for the first time in a game last week and now I'm confusing myself.

Direct fire has to be self spotted, correct? So that a unit with a Direct Fire range (Heer 150mm IG for example) must be on a hill or otherwise increase its natural spotting range above 12 to fire at a target at ranges 13-15?

Or do they have implied optics that let them should out to 15 hexes regardless (sans SSR limiting spotting range)?

Like I said, I have now confused myself...

[plloyd1010]

I think you read it about right. The gun would need to be on a hill. By some fuzzy logic, you might also argue it could fire from in a town too.

[triangular_cube]

I think you read it about right. The gun would need to be on a hill. By some fuzzy logic, you might also argue it could fire from in a town too.

thanks

[Poor Yorek]

4th Ed 8.34 Town Hexes
Normally units or leaders spot from ground level. However, when spotting from a town hex (not a village) treat the town as being 20 meters higher than the terrain it sits on. So, if a town is located in a hex on a 20-meter elevation line, then treat it as 40 meters in elevation for purposes of LOS and spotting range. A town at zero elevation counts as 20 meters in elevation for spotting. The added elevation is for spotting only, never for firing. But an artillery or mortar unit can spot for its own fire using the higher elevation (9.1).  N.B. Section 8 is spotting in general, not specific to BF or DF or AT.

The reference to (9.1) would seem to be of limited utility here since it deals with leaders spotting for bombardment fire.  

The 150mm IG IS an artillery unit with a DF value.

10.0 Direct Fire  Activated units may use their Direct Fire values to fire on hexes containing spotted enemy units within range. Direct Fire affects all enemy units in the target hex.


Thus it would seem that  a 150mm IG (an artillery unit) firing from a town can spot for (and use) its own (direct) fire using the higher (town) elevation to spot units.  

Sed contra: an AT/tank in a town could not use its extended AT range ability (11.3) to fire/attack at ranges 12+ by virtue of 8.34 as they are not artillery units.   

[Poor Yorek]

FWIW, it may be that the writer of the rule intended to say/imply: But an artillery or mortar unit can spot for its own (bombardment) fire using the higher elevation (9.1) and maybe simply wasn't thinking of the few units that are artillery; have a DF, not BF factor; and have a DF range sufficiently long to be able to take advantage of the extended spotting from a town.  

Fuzzy?  You be the judge.

[triangular_cube]

FWIW, it may be that the writer of the rule intended to say/imply: But an artillery or mortar unit can spot for its own (bombardment) fire using the higher elevation (9.1) and maybe simply wasn't thinking of the few units that are artillery; have a DF, not BF factor; and have a DF range sufficiently long to be able to take advantage of the extended spotting from a town.  

Fuzzy?  You be the judge.

It certainly throws a monkey wrench into the situation.

[Coniglius]

I think common sense applies here. Direct fire implies that you, the gunner, are lining up your sites on to the target. You want to fire (directly) on THAT THING as opposed to somewhere OVER THERE. If you are on an elevation, and benefit from increased line of sight, then you can see your target and employ direct fire. If someone else is spotting the target for you, you are no longer employing direct fire... your fire is now being directed by someone else who has eyes on the target; not you, as the gunner. With regards to the town, unless you have the 150mm IG in the church steeple with you, your fire is no longer direct. Basing my observation as someone who has called in indirect artillery fire and walked it on to target.

[Poor Yorek]

 If someone else is spotting the target for you, you are no longer employing direct fire... your fire is now being directed by someone else who has eyes on the target; not you, as the gunner. 

I respectfully disagree.  I submit that the distinction between DF vs. BF has more to do with the type and/or trajectory of the projectile or shell than whether the shooter has "eyes on."  Example:  consider small arms fire at, say 3-500 yards or so.  One can certainly direct rapid fire (semi or fully automatic) on to a target and yet the shooter be guided by someone else, even remotely by radio i.e. suppressive fire. The spotter directs the shooter vis-a-vis elevation and windage since the shooter, though having LOS/LOE to the target, might not have a magnified view of the target or be able to judge accurately the fall of their fire (either because optics on the weapon are too bulky/heavy/FoV restrictive or unavailable or geared for CQB or the shooter is simply too busy with actually firing the weapon).  My point being that small arms fire (or a tank's HE rounds) against a berm or building or what-have-you in a suppressive sense is not a different "effect" (in PG terms a different type of fire and, thus, a different attack column) simply because the shooter (or the gunner of a DF high-explosive round) is, or is not, assisted in correcting point of aim (though this might well be part of the mechanism behind the -1 col shift to DF at ranges > 600 yards).  

Of course, I'm not 19 yo any more, but I can certainly say that shooting over iron sights at 500 yards, I need a spotter or magnified optics to tell where my 5.56/7.62 fire is going (I'll assume in combat, one can't hear the "ding" from a steel target!).

In any case, I certainly do not know APL's intention with this rule: I think Peter's use of "fuzzy" was correct insofar as the RAW would, in my opinion (my first post), allow the town spotting rule to apply to DF of the type we've discussed, but I can also quite readily concede that that might well be an unintended consequence of the wording (my second post).  

[Matt W]

If people are looking for an answer and not detailed justification I would say that the hill situation is obvious and fire should be permitted but that the town situation is less so and failing any additional input I would say no fire beyond 12 hexes, if for no other reason than the terrain is not perfectly flat and at 2 and a half kilometers we're dealing with some significant distance.

However, feel free to use your own interpretations. There really aren't many situations where this will occur.

As an aside, is this addressed in Modern? If so, it might prove to be a guide.

[rkhigdon]

Are we suggesting that a Heer 150mm IG is going to be moved to the rooftops in order to get increased fire range from town?