[Rules] Hex Control (once again)

[campsawyer]

I had an interesting issue come one in a Skype game with Hugmenot tonight. It opens up the hex control discussion again. Here is the situation,

A German unit controls a hex. An American unit assaults the German hex and demoralizes the German unit. In a later activation, the American unit is demoralized too. The American demoralization happens after the initial American assault and no other American or German units enter the hex after that. If fact, by the end of the turn everything stays as is and both units remain demoralized. Which side controls the hex at the end of the turn? Or is it uncontrolled.

[vince hughes]

If I were refereeing, I'd say the last side that had a Good Order or Disrupted unit in the hex controls it.

[Shad]

I'd rule it uncontrolled, since neither of you can control your units in the typical sense ("You go there, shoot him") because they're demoralized.

[tanzerleader]

i agree with Shad. uncontrolled.

[vince hughes]

In our last conversation on the subject, it was agreed that a DEM unit could NOT exert control in a disputed hex.

However, that was talking about where enemy good order or disrupted units also occupied the same hex.

In Alan's example, this is what occurred the turn before. Therefore leaving the hex as controlled by the side that was last in GO or DIS.

For you guys to then state that the hex becomes uncontrolled once the GO or DIS becomes DEM thereafter means you are now allowing the already DEM guy to allow some control as he now swipes the control from the newly DEM'd enemy unit.

It also once again would mean that 'definitions' are yet again being ignored: P.3 "Control" - A hex is controlled by the player whose combat units last occupied it. (and before we go into "both are occupying it", do not forget my first sentence above where the situation was DEM not controlling, because they can not whilst being DEM, but the GO or DIS unit did control). Therefore, nobody has disputed or retaken control from the last side that DID control it.

All that has to be done is to knit the 2 rules together to solve the problem posed rather than try to 2nd guess by gut feeling or worse still "its what I always have done" to what appears to be some kind of novel situation.

[vince hughes]

I'd rule it uncontrolled, since neither of you can control your units in the typical sense

So there is your battalion position in a town 16 hexes from the nearest enemy combat unit, with one of these hexes occupied by a sole AT gun.

In the last turn of the game, the enemy bombard it from 16 hexes away as it was spotted by a forward observer leader and DEM it.

It is now time to count the end of scenario points. You find you lead by 1pt to win the game but then your opponent says "Hang on, I know I am no nearer than 16 hexes to the town, and I know your men occupied it, but your AT gun is DEM so you can not count the 2 VP's for that hex"....

So you now lose the game by a point based on that quote ?

[waynebaumber]

Good point, Vince, However I would agree with Shad that in the assault scenario, logic would suggest that the hex is uncontrolled if by turn end both sides are DEM.
The hes control rule needs better definition than is now the case.
Something like. A hex is controlled but the side who last had a unit in it, or in the case of a scenario where only one side starts on the board then the whole board is under control of that player. When units of both sides are in the same hex that hex is uncontrolled by either player unless one sides units are all DEM then the other player has control. Should all units of both sides be DEM then that hes is uncontrolled.

[campsawyer]

In Alan's example, this is what occurred the turn before.

Vince, this occurred in the same game turn, but different activation.

If a unit loses control, or at least contention of the hex, at the point that it is demoralized, when does control occur? At that same moment or something else, end of activation, end of turn?

[Shad]

I am most comfortable with control being defined thus:

• control of a hex is gained by having a good-order or DIS combat unit enter the hex when no enemy combat units are present
  
• in order to take control of a hex from the enemy, you must drive the enemy combat unit(s) from the hex (if any are present) AND you must have at least one good-order or DIS combat unit in the hex
  
• if Player A assaults a hex controlled and occupied by Player B, and during the assault all of Player B's combat units become demoralized, Player B has lost control of the hex but Player A has not yet gained control. The hex status is "contested".
  

Vince, you are a proven rules maven. I politely invite you to try and find corner-cases or gray areas in the above.

Those guidelines work in my mind, conflict however they may with the RaW.

[campsawyer]

control of a hex is gained by having a good-order or DIS combat unit enter the hex when no enemy combat units are present

No problem with this one

in order to take control of a hex from the enemy, you must drive the enemy combat unit(s) from the hex (if any are present) AND you must have at least one good-order or DIS combat unit in the hex

I would not say "drive out", but just not have Good Order or Disrupted enemy units

if Player A assaults a hex controlled and occupied by Player B, and during the assault all of Player B's combat units become demoralized, Player B has lost control of the hex but Player A has not yet gained control. The hex status is "contested".

The question here is when does control exist, you position supports an "end of turn" control assumption. But a question arises that control could be taken by player A at the moment that player B loses it, when it is demoralized. If that is the case then player A was the last to control it. This would be the "moment in time" control assumption.