An Ironic Thought Occurred To Me

[vince hughes]

Remember the earlier days of PG when MB used to say he would not publish any PG games that had SS in them ?

Now that there are sooooo many SS units, I was sorting out my accrued masses of SS counters yesterday to put into their very own box away from the Wehrmacht. I could not help think the irony that it may have been Mike's hated SS that assisted in rescuing AP !

Just think, Kursk-SF, Black SS and Winter Soldiers were all products that came in the dark days in the bid to help AP keep going.

Now is'nt that a srange combo for success ... SS / MB

[Blackcloud6]

And now there are the '"vil" black ones. But one cannot do a series of tactical WWII combat and avoid having the SS.

[upintheattic]

Remember the earlier days of PG when MB used to say he would not publish any PG games that had SS in them ?

Now that there are sooooo many SS units, I was sorting out my accrued masses of SS counters yesterday to put into their very own box away from the Wehrmacht. I could not help think the irony that it may have been Mike's hated SS that assisted in rescuing AP !

Just think, Kursk-SF, Black SS and Winter Soldiers were all products that came in the dark days in the bid to help AP keep going.

Now is'nt that a srange combo for success ... SS / MB

I don't know that he ever said he'd never publish any games that had SS in them. After all, America Triumphant is a non-PG game that had SS units in it. One can't publish anything (PG or otherwise) having to do with the latter part of World War II without including SS units since they were ubiquitous by then. I think what he really said is that he never wanted to publish anything that glorified Nazis (something I agreed with). That's why he refused to put swastikas on anything in any AP game, a policy that resulted in an act of spite from a departing art director, who put a swastika on the original box cover of SWWAS: Midway (an act that Mike fumed about for years).

However, I disagreed with the publication of a sheet of special, black counters with BLACK SS. He said the public wanted them, but you can't get around the fact that the publication of "cool" black counters is little different from giving SS members "cool" black uniforms. Both acts glorify the SS, and the color scheme on the counters is confusing because it requires the reversal of the color scheme for DF and BF from the rulebook. It was useless thing to do, and I think we would have been better off including a sheet of counters with never-before-seen SS unit types or some such.

[vince hughes]

I don't know that he ever said he'd never publish any games that had SS in them.

Doug,

The very first paragraph of the introduction to Sinister Forces.

"Despite the desire of some gamers to plav scenarios featuring these forces, I didn't want them in a game that I'd designed"

(he is explaining why no SS had appeared beforehand)

[upintheattic]

I don't know that he ever said he'd never publish any games that had SS in them.

Doug,

The very first paragraph of the introduction to Sinister Forces.

"Despite the desire of some gamers to plav scenarios featuring these forces, I didn't want them in a game that I'd designed"

(he is explaining why no SS had appeared beforehand)

Well, then he was out to lunch on that one. You just can't produce a decent WWII wargame series while consciously excluding one of the major service branches of one of the major antagonists.

[vince hughes]

Agreed, and of course the later the War, the more you would have to have huge gaps in the campaigns.

[Poor Yorek]

What I found ironic is that the Black pieces (if interpreted as the black uniform) were actually a throwback: as I understand it, the SS pioneered modern use of camouflage combat uniforms. Thus I interpreted the use of the black counters as derogatory to the Waffen SS, being a return to a look as a praetorian guard. The SS had discontinued the black parade uniform in 1934 (I think, but I may stand corrected).

That being said, the black pieces certainly make for a clear visual distinction on the boards, particularly in battles with US forces. In particular, scenarios with both SS and Heer units vs allied forces are particularly visually coherent with the black-and-grey clearly distinguished from the allied colors.

[plloyd1010]

Besides in Sinister Forces, Dr. Mike also expressed his view point in a daily content article. What he didn't tell in the Sinister Forces intro was that his his grandfather was with the 137th Mountain Regiment. As related in Sinister Forces, his grandfather (now a decorated soldier of the fatherland) was later imprisoned for being disloyal/traitorous. So that's why I think it is so personal for him. I think what set him off was villain mystic which the SS hold in the collective imagination.

I agree with the irony of the position.

[larry marak]

The Attic dweller is correct, Dr. B's position was that he absolutely did not want to pander to the (still too abundant) nazi-philes. Later on, as more 1943+ material came out, he often spoke of "making nazi's cry" and in Sinister Forces, he joyfully makes fun of SS tactical incompetence.

Keep in mind that it is a crime to manufacture or sell anything in Germany with a swastika logo and using that on Avalanche products would hurt potential European sales. West End games with repeatedly guilty of this marketing mistake.

[waynebaumber]

Totally agree that you can not do WWII tactical games without including the SS. Do not see the need for black counters myself, I thought the camouflage counters were pretty cool, but please lets not have a debate about whether portraying SS in games glamorize them in whatever counter scheme they appear in. Its been done to death in too many forums.