Liberation, the game that saved PG

[vince hughes]

Vince was the first person I thought of after I got done gasping over the idea that Larry would describe Liberation as "saving PG".

I love you Joe! 

(from your dreamy eyed Limey)

If you VASSAL any of your games when not facing Mr Moody, let me know which ones.

[zaarin7]

Vince I enjoyed out one game and talking to you.

[Hugmenot]

Vince, I don't understand why two 10-scenario products on alt-history could be a thorn in anyone side other than for the completist who does not like alt history at all. Can you shed some light on that? From my perspective, I would just skip them and save the money or spend it on something else I wanted to try.

It might be different if the focus moved to alt history but with at least a half dozen real history products awaiting development and another half dozen submitted or soon to be submitted, it won't happen anytime soon.

[larry marak]

Hugmenot, I suspect Mike is just sending up a trial balloon here as far as the SGWAS extension into land games is concerned. SWWAS's problem is that it has covered all theatres of WW2 with the exception of Norway/Sea Lion. New versions of SOPAC, Leyte, Bomb Alley and Midway are in various states of cogitation, but there really wasn't much left to cover. The SGWAS campaign creates a whole new WW2 at sea to game, as does the Long War campaign, and fills the need for new campaigns in SWWAS. That need doesn't exist in PG.

It's going to be an interesting trial balloon though, with one PG product, one operational game level product (Alsace 1940 remember, WW1 ended in Jan 1916 and so Alsace and Lorraine remain as German as apple strudel), and one strategic level product, so far not mentioned outside of GC newsletters. I suspect we'll have some unique little toys down the road, but not much more.

[Matt W]

I think that describes one of the major differences between PG and the maritime series. While there was a great deal of activity on the high seas, the number of times that significant actions on the scale of the games occurred in both wars was relatively small. As you mentioned it was imperative for the two series to have releases that move into speculative arenas if they were to have new releases at all. PG, on the other hand, has never come close to exhausting the real, even for the highly marketable and easily accessible actions (easily accessible meaning in languages that can be read by the current designer base and turned into scenarios). Thus the desire for alternate history was driven either by Mike's own interests (Hopeless, but Not Serious), Toys (Secret Weapons, DAK '44, GD '46, et al), New Toys and Foes (the Cold War stuff) or a combination (Polish Steel, Red & White).

Why do we see these two new items? Toys (the M Division in Tunisia) and New Toys and Foes (the Alsace campaign). I do think that Mike probably got a look at the number of people who hit his April Fool's joke and, combined with the value of Lions of Finland in the aftermarket, saw some possibilities for a limited number of sales, but in the end, I think this is just a fun addition to the line.

[vince hughes]

Vince, I don't understand why two 10-scenario products on alt-history could be a thorn in anyone side other than for the completist who does not like alt history at all. Can you shed some light on that? From my perspective, I would just skip them and save the money or spend it on something else I wanted to try.

It might be different if the focus moved to alt history but with at least a half dozen real history products awaiting development and another half dozen submitted or soon to be submitted, it won't happen anytime soon.

Daniel,

I'd see it as a thorn for the following reasons (and assumption).

1. I don't think it will be the only mythical SGW product. Ten scenarios now, but I suspect more on the way.
2. That means effort being put into a mythical set when there are people waiting for already paid for historical product.
3. As you said in your post. With half a dozen historicals already awaiting development, why press on with PG Middle Earth instead of devoting time to those in the pipeline. Certainly not all 6 will be getting every attention when design wanders to Disc World.
4. Had I still been contributing, I wouldn't have been a supporter of the scenarios being added here.
5. The fifth is simple. It's just not to my taste either here, in a TCS, ASL, War Storm or any other form.  
6. There is still so much real-stuff to do!!

[Hugmenot]

Vince,

I expect we will see other such products from time to time but keep in mind Matt and I are primarily interested in real history. While this should be a fun, short (weeks long) project, I can't imagine SGW PG becoming my main gig and I don't see how the SGW PG line can really take off without another set of developers.

I believe the scenarios belong here as much as the other hypothetical scenarios already published., I accept they are not everyone's cup of tea but I don't know on which basis we would exclude them because they are PG products.

Yes, there is a lot of remaining real-life stuff to do and I suspect our queue will only become longer and longer as times goes on. We'll get more efficient but not enough when compared to the output of the growing group of designers.

[vince hughes]

Daniel,

If Martian Tripods have appeared here I have no doubt SGW will do so.

Anyway, all it is is a matter of taste and/or preference. I was just in the rather 'serious' carmudgeonly camp. Others will love them and I respect that fact, even if I am a million miles from that position.

[otto]

Well I would never post the following in the Consimworld forum but here we are a bit more "liberal".
Why are pziv and panther tanks allotted to the M division in Sicily?
The oob included pzIII short barrel, stugs and tiger I tanks.
I would certainly agree that you can skip hypothetical scenarios and that the core products will remain hystorical scenarios but still why not to try to remain as close as possible to reality if sources are good enough?
The M divisjon went very close to be used for the defence of Rome and additional scenarios could be designed featuring fights against the Germans but I would want to see their real OOB.
I apologize if the proper tanks are in the countersheet. I would really like it to be the case.
Ottavio

[larry marak]

They wouldn't have been issued Tigers, but they were receiving pz iv's, pz iiin's and stug iii's in may 43.  They had very high priority from Himmler who thought of this as a Fascist SS division.  This went on in the midst of the build-up for Citadel.