(03-03-2023, 12:00 PM)triangular_cube Wrote: (03-03-2023, 11:19 AM)cjsiam Wrote: The world is shifting under my feet.....
that which was stable and known turns to mud and is unclear.....Aiya....."May you live in interesting times"...
And in my games as well....sigh......
DO WE AGREE?:
1) Activation is either "To Move" or "To Fire"? This is clearly stated in multiple places....there is no "only just activated" state for any types of units....
if they are activated they are activated "To Move" or "To Fire".
2) The actions available to units activated to MOVE do not involve a DIRECT FIRE attack....that also is clearly stated...
The actions available to units activated to FIRE do not involve a MOVE (except in the case of moving into Assault).... These are called out
3) Once a unit moves (units being all types of units) it is marked with a Moved/Fired marker---it then is limited to what it can do ---These actions
have been called out as well....it does not include contributing it's Fire Factor to another attack--it can contribute it's MF to a unit near for MC ...but
that IS explicitly called out---adding its CF to a DF attack IS NOT CALLED OUT....thus interpreting that as "somehow allowed because it is not explicitly disallowed"
seems a reach to me....instead the rules writers has explicitly TOLD YOU what you can do---thus, if it's not in their list--you can't do it....
Maybe that is the crux of our perspective difference.....??
With those considerations....a Leader who activates to MOVE, does not get to contribute his Fire factor and participate in a DF, or combining Fire...
Do we not agree on that?
1) Well we are talking about leaders, not units. While that may sound patronizing, they are distinct entities in the rules... sometimes... and are spoken of together others. We all know this a sloppy point in the PZG ruleset. As to the leaders, and rereading 4th tonight, I'd actually say its quite ambiguous as to whether or not leaders move/fire or rather just "activate".
2) For units, yes. Which is not in dispute. Again, with leaders, the rules read entirely ambiguously. Noted specifically that the section breaking down move vs fire is under the heading of "Unit Actions", and "Leaders and Activation" under another.
3)See this is the side issue, as to whether or not an activated unit remains activated throughout the whole action segment in which they activated or just until they get a moved/fired chit. In fact the only directly relevant passage to this granularity of the rules I can seem to find is "A leader may only activate units at the beginning of his activation (he may not move and then activate units he was not with or adjacent to before moving)". While in the situation described by Shad/Peter, the unit is not moving to activate, to be clear, the adjacent unit was activated before the move; this does suggest that the leader is still in some state of activation after the move, if they have a distinction between "beginning of his activation" and ... some other ambiguous stage of activation.
Regardless, I draw you back to my hypothetical, of the unit and leader both being in the same hex at activation, the unit firing with the modifier of the active leader, and then the leader moving.
That being said, playing the "calls out game" you are here, as Shad pointed out, the rules explicitly say that a leader can't use his modifier to assist in morale recovery, and then do anything else. Why is this called out specifically if in your thinking, it wouldnt have been allowed anyway? Where is said exclusion for combat modifiers?
Does a leader "fire" when directing a unit to fire w/modifier? Does a leader actually activate to fire/to move or just activate? At this point I'd have to say the rules don't actually say.
I've certainly always played the way you have without a second thought, and while I'm not sure I entirely agree with the counter proposal here, I am left pondering.
#A---I never take anything as patronizing---this is actually important stuff...clarity of understanding of fundamentals (like this) in the rules is actually
critical to being able to play remote with other players(I'm in thailand..about as remote as it gets...)
As I have discovered, a difference in understanding can circumvent being able to play with some who have a different interpretation....
And that is my loss
....but, my only approach is to try and demonstrate, what I understand to be, the correct way to read the rules and play the game--while
Looking to see if I have screwed things up and am incorrect....as we all should, me thinks...so continuing to engage and find resolution is my preference
So as long as we're gentle with each other---let the arguments, the chains of Logic spew forth!....let the Truth/correct interpretation be known....so that we ALL might
play the same game...Some may call it "rules Lawyering"--but, it matters...we have to be playing the same game--by the same rules (an agreed set...) else we
will have problems--reducing our options to enjoy engagement with each other--everyone loses...
you stated:
1) Well we are talking about leaders, not units. While that may sound patronizing, they are distinct entities in the rules... sometimes... and are spoken of together others. We all know this a sloppy point in the PZG ruleset. As to the leaders, and rereading 4th tonight, I'd actually say its quite ambiguous as to whether or not leaders move/fire or rather just "activate".
If I may counter:
3.1 Action Segments An action segment consists of any one of the following:- A single unit or leader self-activating;
- Some or all units stacked together in the same hex activating at once, with or without leaders. If any regular leaders or tank leaders are in the stack, they may activate and direct the units in the stack for movement and combat purposes, plus units and subordinate leaders in adjacent hexes;
- A single leader activating and directing all units in his hex plus the six hexes adjacent to him;
- A single leader activating and directing a chain of units and lower-ranking leaders in several hexes through Subordinate Activation (3.2).
So in all cases---a leader will ACTIVATE....the leader does not get to "not activate" and still impact any units...
Thus---if a leader is to ACTIVATE--he will then ACTIVATE "to Move" or "to Fire" (continuing...see below)
3.13 Unit Actions The activated unit, leader or group performs actions in no specific order, but all actions must be designated before the first is performed. Actions are either Movement or Fire. Players need not pre-designate directions or targets - they just state which units will move and which will fire this action segment.
"Movement" includes moving (5.0), digging in (16.2), limbering/unlimbering (5.63) or attempting to recover morale (14.4).
"Fire" includes direct fire (10.0), bombardment (9.0), anti-tank fire (11.0) and assault (12.0, even though initiating or joining an assault involves moving into the assault hex).
Once units are done moving and firing, mark them with Moved/Fired markers. Units marked with Moved/Fired markers may not activate again in the current turn except through Random Events (see Optional Rules).
So---here in 3.13--it clearly, and unequivocally states that ALL UNITS, LEADERS or groups either activate to MOVE or to FIRE.
It may be that some interpret "units" in this context, in this paragraph to exclude or not apply to Leaders---
I contend this is not in the spirit of the subject identified in the initial clause "The activated unit, leader or group"....the units (plural--signifying the grouping of unit, leader or group)
Is this where you see a lack of clarity?....
2) For units, yes. Which is not in dispute. Again, with leaders, the rules read entirely ambiguously. Noted specifically that the section breaking down move vs fire is under the heading of "Unit Actions", and "Leaders and Activation" under another.
But---Leaders are SPECIFICALLY called out in the grouping of "unit, leaders or group" in 3.13---so it unambiguously stipulates that it applies to Leaders---
That cannot be called into question (I think)--it is explicitly called out.
Notice in
3.12 Leaders and ActivationA good-order leader may (but is not required to) activate units and lower-ranking leaders
So a Leader Activates a lower ranking leader---in 3.12---then in 3.13 it clearly says "to Move or to Fire".....
So---if a leader is activated by a superior leader, he must activate to MOVE or to FIRE---
Are you proposing that the Superior Leader, who did the activation of the junior leader---has a Third "only activated" state?
...that somehow That leader does not follow the requirement placed on leaders he might activate Junior to him?
I can find no other reference or back up for such a state......I think the strictures of 3.13 apply to leaders--as written---- I think 3.1(above) specifically excludes this...
he has to ACTIVATE---and all ACTIVATED units do ACTIONS which are "To Move" or "To Fire"....
3)See this is the side issue, as to whether or not an activated unit remains activated throughout the whole action segment in which they activated or just until they get a moved/fired chit. In fact the only directly relevant passage to this granularity of the rules I can seem to find is "A leader may only activate units at the beginning of his activation (he may not move and then activate units he was not with or adjacent to before moving)".
I think the last sentence of this often referred to rule is explicit here:
3.13 Unit Actions The activated unit, leader or group performs actions in no specific order, but all actions must be designated before the first is performed. Actions are either Movement or Fire. Players need not pre-designate directions or targets - they just state which units will move and which will fire this action segment.
"Movement" includes moving (5.0), digging in (16.2), limbering/unlimbering (5.63) or attempting to recover morale (14.4). "Fire" includes direct fire (10.0), bombardment (9.0), anti-tank fire (11.0) and assault (12.0, even though initiating or joining an assault involves moving into the assault hex).
Once units are done moving and firing, mark them with Moved/Fired markers. Units marked with Moved/Fired markers may not activate again in the current turn except through Random Events (see Optional Rules).
So here--in the above RAW---with my understanding that this section is talking about "unit, leader or group" as the "units" it discusses in the section---it is the first clause, the subject of the first sentence. It is titled "Unit Actions" but the subject in first sentence INCLUDES leaders in the context of what follows.
AND the Last Sentence proscribes players to Mark the units discussed (unit, leader or group) with Moved/Fired markers at the conclusion of their action.
Further:
6.2 Leader Activation A leader may only be activated if it is not currently marked with a Moved/Fired marker. A leader with a Moved/Fired marker may assist friendly units undergoing morale checks (14.1) or defending against an assault (12.4), but may not activate friendly units (3.1), assist recovering units (14.4), or initiate an assault (12.11).
This indicates (I think) that all actions under 3.1 (3.11, 3.12, 3.13...) cannot be undertaking by units which would require this leader to activate them if that leader already
has a M/F marker upon him...
7.1 Types
Each unit which elects to "Fire" during its activation segment
So in order to Fire, they must be activated "to FIRE" in their activation --- then, and only then--in their turn, can they use any of the Fire types...
7.33 Combining Fire
Units (including strongpoints) may... ... Units in adjacent hexes may combine fire only if activated by a leader who has a combat modifier. A leader can combine the fire of his hex plus a number of adjacent hexes equal to his combat modifier (6.41).
We saw above in 3.x that in order to impact units "direct them" a leader must activate---and, thus he activates "To Fire" or "To Move".
6.42 Firepower Enhancement
An activated, undemoralized leader may add his combat modifier to the direct fire value of one unit in his own hex.
While in the situation described by Shad/Peter, the unit is not moving to activate, to be clear, the adjacent unit was activated before the move; this does suggest that the leader is still in some state of activation after the move, if they have a distinction between "beginning of his activation" and ... some other ambiguous stage of activation.
I understood the situation differently...
A) the INF unit and Leader were adjacent at start of Action Segment....
B) the INF unit activated to Fire
C) the Leader would have had to activate to Move--in order to be in same hex (a requirement to apply the CF to DF)....
My interpretation of this means that:
1. the leader has to move to enter hex---with a move order he can---BUT he is then marked with a Moved/Fired marker (see 3.13 above)
2. the INF unit cannot use the leaders CF in his DF as the leader was not activated to Fire, is now done for the turn--with Moved/Fired marker on him...
Regardless, I draw you back to my hypothetical, of the unit and leader both being in the same hex at activation, the unit firing with the modifier of the active leader, and then the leader moving.
I refer to the following---BEFORE any action takes place---all units/leaders involved must activate---
and they activate "Perform a Movement Action" or "Perform a Fire Action" (shorthand "To Move" or "To Fire")
That is ASSIGNED before any action is resolved....(we've been here before...)
SO----if the leader is going to MOVE---he cannot participate in DF--- as he would have a MOVEMENT action/activation...
and with a TO MOVE activation he can only :
moving (5.0), digging in (16.2), limbering/unlimbering (5.63) or attempting to recover morale (14.4).
See below:
3.13 Unit ActionsThe activated unit, leader or group performs actions in no specific order, but all actions must be designated before the first is performed. Actions are either Movement or Fire. Players need not pre-designate directions or targets - they just state which units will move and which will fire this action segment.
"Movement" includes moving (5.0), digging in (16.2), limbering/unlimbering (5.63) or attempting to recover morale (14.4). "Fire" includes direct fire (10.0), bombardment (9.0), anti-tank fire (11.0) and assault (12.0, even though initiating or joining an assault involves moving into the assault hex).
So if you activated to FIRE---you could not move, but could fire....(assault movement excluded...)
if you activated to MOVE---you could move, but not fire....
That being said, playing the "calls out game" you are here, as Shad pointed out, the rules explicitly say that a leader can't use his modifier to assist in morale recovery, and then do anything else. Why is this called out specifically if in your thinking, it wouldnt have been allowed anyway? Where is said exclusion for combat modifiers?
We refer to this:
14.4 RecoveryOnly a successful recovery attempt can repair the degraded morale status of a unit or leader. When players attempt to improve the morale status of their demoralized and disrupted units it is called "recovery." Units may recover with the assistance of an activated leader, or on their own. Units attempting recovery and leaders assisting them must be activated and may conduct no other action that turn. Place a Moved/Fired marker on any unit that attempts recovery (whether it is successful or not), and any leader who assists a recovery attempt.
3.13 Unit Actions The activated unit, leader or group performs actions in no specific order, but all actions must be designated before the first is performed. Actions are either Movement or Fire. Players need not pre-designate directions or targets - they just state which units will move and which will fire this action segment.
"Movement" includes moving (5.0), digging in (16.2), limbering/unlimbering (5.63) or attempting to recover morale (14.4).
So in order to assist in recovery---a Leader MUST activate to Move--The Stricture is further placed on that unit that it may not move away or conduct any other action that turn...
So--all FIRE actions are explicitly illegal as it was a MOVE activation---but in this case all other MOVEMENT actions are illegal as well
moving (5.0), digging in (16.2), limbering/unlimbering (5.63).
Assisting OTHER units in inflicted morale checks--where an adjacent unit becomes subject to a morale check due to enemy DF/Bombardment, in a later action segment IS NOT prohibited--as it is not an "action" undertaken by the leader....
So the issue here is further restriction of MOVEMENT actions due to the leader assisting a unit to recover morale--he can't do any of the other usually legal
actions.
Does a leader "fire" when directing a unit to fire w/modifier? Does a leader actually activate to fire/to move or just activate? At this point I'd have to say the rules don't actually say.
I would disagree---with the examples above as evidence of various cases...
a) I think clearly a leader has to ACTIVATE (3.1)
b) ACTIVATION requires the assignment of what type of Action(3.13)
c) Having had a "To Move" or "To Fire" activation---there are constraints as to what a unit can do (see full 3.13)
I've certainly always played the way you have without a second thought, and while I'm not sure I entirely agree with the counter proposal here, I am left pondering.
Key question I think comes down to --- When a leader Activates---Must he choose to activate "To Move" or "To Fire"....
and I think the above shows that this is the case.
Here I Stand...
Here's one for you....
If I had a leader in a hex with multiple units---and there were neighboring hexes with friendly units---and we were adjacent to an enemy occupied Town hex....
CAN that leader when activated TO FIRE.....say he has a +2 CF....can he:
a) combine DF for 3hexes (his own and two others)...say one unit from each into a DF attack, and add his own DF+2
and Then
b) Assault (a Fire activation) with one unit from each hex (3 total then going in, along with leader) and add his CF to the Assault (and leader present...)
I THINK it would be NO...that at the completion of a) he's marked with a Moved/Fired and thus doesn't get to participate in
the Assault Party....
And Here's another---the one that really gets my goat about what's been suggested:
I have a line of Inf units facing some enemy unit across field hexes...say enemy is at 3hexes.
Behind my units I have a column of other units coming up behind the front line of units, stacked with leaders....
I happen to have a leader with a +2 CF modifier at 4hexes from the front line of units....
So I "Chain activate" ---the front line guys are activated to Fire(by a near leader)....and the +2 leader is activated to Move....
So I move the leader 4 hexes, landing on top of one of my front line stacks....
and I then (according to proposed interpretation) Combine 3 hexes of units, and add my +2 to the resulting
DF attack...
I moved full ---but because I am not required to have declared "To Fire"--being "Activated still somehow" I
get to do this (just basically extending the example Shad presented to an extreme...)
I think that is very flawed....and in violation of the 3.13---when if you move, your done and since you activated
to move you can't fire with that unit anyway....
THIS WAS LONG....but....I think we need to settle this to everyone's liking and agreement....
this is kinda fundamental (there are a couple others like this we'll get to next...)
