(03-03-2023, 11:19 AM)cjsiam Wrote: The world is shifting under my feet.....
that which was stable and known turns to mud and is unclear.....Aiya....."May you live in interesting times"...
And in my games as well....sigh......
DO WE AGREE?:
1) Activation is either "To Move" or "To Fire"? This is clearly stated in multiple places....there is no "only just activated" state for any types of units....
if they are activated they are activated "To Move" or "To Fire".
2) The actions available to units activated to MOVE do not involve a DIRECT FIRE attack....that also is clearly stated...
The actions available to units activated to FIRE do not involve a MOVE (except in the case of moving into Assault).... These are called out
3) Once a unit moves (units being all types of units) it is marked with a Moved/Fired marker---it then is limited to what it can do ---These actions
have been called out as well....it does not include contributing it's Fire Factor to another attack--it can contribute it's MF to a unit near for MC ...but
that IS explicitly called out---adding its CF to a DF attack IS NOT CALLED OUT....thus interpreting that as "somehow allowed because it is not explicitly disallowed"
seems a reach to me....instead the rules writers has explicitly TOLD YOU what you can do---thus, if it's not in their list--you can't do it....
Maybe that is the crux of our perspective difference.....??
With those considerations....a Leader who activates to MOVE, does not get to contribute his Fire factor and participate in a DF, or combining Fire...
Do we not agree on that?
1) Well we are talking about leaders, not units. While that may sound patronizing, they are distinct entities in the rules... sometimes... and are spoken of together others. We all know this a sloppy point in the PZG ruleset. As to the leaders, and rereading 4th tonight, I'd actually say its quite ambiguous as to whether or not leaders move/fire or rather just "activate".
2) For units, yes. Which is not in dispute. Again, with leaders, the rules read entirely ambiguously. Noted specifically that the section breaking down move vs fire is under the heading of "Unit Actions", and "Leaders and Activation" under another.
3)See this is the side issue, as to whether or not an activated unit remains activated throughout the whole action segment in which they activated or just until they get a moved/fired chit. In fact the only directly relevant passage to this granularity of the rules I can seem to find is "A leader may only activate units at the beginning of his activation (he may not move and then activate units he was not with or adjacent to before moving)". While in the situation described by Shad/Peter, the unit is not moving to activate, to be clear, the adjacent unit was activated before the move; this does suggest that the leader is still in some state of activation after the move, if they have a distinction between "beginning of his activation" and ... some other ambiguous stage of activation.
Regardless, I draw you back to my hypothetical, of the unit and leader both being in the same hex at activation, the unit firing with the modifier of the active leader, and then the leader moving.
That being said, playing the "calls out game" you are here, as Shad pointed out, the rules explicitly say that a leader can't use his modifier to assist in morale recovery, and then do anything else. Why is this called out specifically if in your thinking, it wouldnt have been allowed anyway? Where is said exclusion for combat modifiers?
Does a leader "fire" when directing a unit to fire w/modifier? Does a leader actually activate to fire/to move or just activate? At this point I'd have to say the rules don't actually say.
I've certainly always played the way you have without a second thought, and while I'm not sure I entirely agree with the counter proposal here, I am left pondering.
