[Rules] Who commands the SPAs?

[plloyd1010]

A consensus question, since I don't recall it being specified in the rules. We have "regular" leaders, with a subtype of cavalry leaders, tank leaders, and the offshoot of armored car leaders (always inherent). As Vince noted in separate thread, "tanks" have the NATO armor symbol. Tank leaders command them and APCs. "Regular" leaders command infantry, guns & APCs. AC leaders command no one except other armored cars. Thing is that there are a couple other types, and AP seems to be adding more. I can see how regular leaders might be commanding units like the M-13 (Katyusha), but not the M7, but then again the Grille should be. Then there are the M-16s & Wirbelwinds maybe not really beholding to anybody.

Who commands your non-transport vehicles?

[campsawyer]

Either infantry or tank leaders. They units specified are support units, usually attached to an force commanded by these leaders.

[vince hughes]

Peter,

Although not a full answer, here is the answer to one query I posted to Doug three and half years ago and will hopefully clear up one form of non AFV type.

My question is shown first followed by Doug's answer under the asterisks.

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Doug,

Re The SK 7/2's that are shown as Self-Propelled artillery in 'special rules'.

They are given a special rule because being unarmoured they are not really an AFV, but are armed as one.

So the Q's that came up (and we did read between special rules and 5.64 (as referred) and AFV effeciency etc but couldn't make up our minds..

1/ Are they effecient for 2 shots ?
2/ Do they have an inherent leader or do they need to be activated for combat by a tank leader, thus making them dependent on being adjacent to a proper AFV.

Cheers Doug.

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Hi, Vince. Actually, Special Rule 6 from 1940 just says the SK 7/2 is self-propelled artillery. So that means it's NOT an AFV and is actually a weapon unit per rule 5.64 (you'll notice it has a normal AA symbol on it just like a non-vehicular weapon unit, not a tank symbol with an A superimposed like a tank with AA capability). So, that means the SK 7/2 does not get armor efficiency and can only be activated by regular leaders like other weapon units (not tank leaders).

-- Doug

[campsawyer]

Vince, I knew you had an email on this. Good to post as Peter states with new weapons and new scenario designers and developer we might get some stranded support units.

[zaarin7]

Things like that are why this game system has need a COMPREHENSIVE FAQ document for years linked to the header at Consimworld.

[campsawyer]

Things like that are why this game system has need a COMPREHENSIVE FAQ document for years linked to the header at Consimworld.

The FAQ document has been superseded by this site. For this item, I have added a clarification to the annotated rules for tank leaders.

[Poor Yorek]

It appears that the 4th Ed rules address this under the definition of an AFV. "Tank" leaders are AFV leaders and can activate any unit with a printed armor value, including SPAs. Rules 6.8 and 6.83 specify that regular leaders can activate SPAs and other specified vehicular units (APCs and ENG vehicles), but not add their morale bonus. So the answer in 4th Ed. to the query "who commands the SPAs?" is that a leader of either type may.

[Poor Yorek]

A related question: in 4th ed., can a regular leader with a combat bonus, activating an SPA and a regular (towed) artillery unit (or another SPA) that are in adjacent hexes, use his combat bonus to combine the BF fire between the two (c.f. 6.41)?

6.8 and 6.83 make it clear that regular leaders can activate SPAs even though they are AFVs, but 6.8 is explicit in denying the regular leader's morale bonus to a morale check or recovery to an SPA unit. Nothing is said, however, about the use of the combat bonus. So ...

(i) since nothing is said explicitly to the contrary, does one take the normal meaning to be that a regular leader with a combat bonus can activate any mix of SPAs and regular artillery pieces in one or two (depending on the leader's bonus) adjacent hexes to combine their BF values into a single attack value or ...

(ii) infer from 6.8 that since the morale bonus of a regular leader can not be applied to an SPA, neither can the combat bonus be applied to combine them for BF (c.f. rule 6.41)?

and cry 'havoc' and let loose the Dogs of War!

[campsawyer]

(i) since nothing is said explicitly to the contrary, does one take the normal meaning to be that a regular leader with a combat bonus can activate any mix of SPAs and regular artillery pieces in one or two (depending on the leader's bonus) adjacent hexes to combine their BF values into a single attack value or ...

Sense you have pointed out in (i), nothing is specificed, but in (ii) you infer, then I would go with you first. The Golden Rule for rules as written, never read in more than is there and if it doesn't say you cannot, then you can.

[vince hughes]

6.83 Other Leaders.
Regular leaders may not activate or direct tanks (1.2),
reconnaissance vehicles (usually armored cars, 1.2), or tank
leaders. However, they can activate APCs, self-propelled
artillery, and engineering vehicles (like the AVRE or Crab)
even if they are AFVs. Any AFVs and tank leaders stacked
in the regular leader’s hex can activate simultaneously with
him if the stack self-activates

PY,

Same answer from me. As well as the above which shows that regular leaders can activate SPA and the rule you also referenced 6.8 telling us that they can not assist with SPA morale suggests to me that combining SPA with ORD of any type is fair game for leaders with a combat mod. I have found nothing to say that this can not be done. However, I have not read the full set and for all I know there may be something elsewhere that gives us more insights. But from what has been discussed here, it all seems to jive with that email (and intent) that Doug sent me that I posted here a week back or so.