[Rules] 8.4 Elevation makes no sense to me

[russ]

Hi Vince,

I have been following the discussion about the meaning of "Up to three offboard artillery factors may combine into one attack per action segment."

As the rule is written, I don't believe clearly it implies that only one artillery attack can be made in an action segment, but whatever - I'm not so interested in analyzing the grammar and semantics of the rule sentences as in knowing what the intended/official meaning of the rule is.

So I bow to your experience. I also see some earlier comments in that OBA thread (e.g. http://www.pg-hq.com/comms/showthread.ph...96#pid2196 ) mentioning some older FAQ saying the OBA in one action must be combined, so OK, cool.

Thanks for your help!

[vince hughes]

Russ,

As you become immersed in the game, you will find (unfortunately) many more of these. Hopefully 4th edition will iron it all out.

[russ]

Yeah, I'm noticing as I play that the rules seemed much clearer when I read them before I actually played the game and started having to apply them...

Still, they're clearer than a lot of games I've seen, at least. And at least they're not terribly long.

[Hugmenot]

Yes, players complain about the rules but the situation is far from unique to Panzer Grenadier.

I have been playing the same as Vince since my first match with Matt W 20 months ago. It is, in my opinion, the most direct interpretation of the rules.

One thing I remind myself when reading any rulebook is that I am not reading a legal document and thus stick with the most direct interpretation instead of finding loopholes. Even a lawyer like RHB writes rulebooks full of uncertainties.

[russ]

Yes, players complain about the rules but the situation is far from unique to Panzer Grenadier.

I have been playing the same as Vince since my first match with Matt W 20 months ago. It is, in my opinion, the most direct interpretation of the rules.

One thing I remind myself when reading any rulebook is that I am not reading a legal document and thus stick with the most direct interpretation instead of finding loopholes.

To be clear, I wasn't looking for loopholes or trying to twist the rules. The language used (e.g. "Up to three offboard bombardment fire values may combine into one fire value") genuinely led me to naturally interpret it that the fire values represent distinct artillery guns firing, and the verb "may" instead of "must" suggests optional choice about combining, and my natural assumption is that independent guns may fire at the same target or at different targets. The artillery rules were something about which I didn't even feel conscious uncertainty until they came up tangentially in this thread and I discovered that I was doing it wrong!

Even a lawyer like RHB writes rulebooks full of uncertainties.

So far the best written nontrivial wargame rules I've found are by Chad Jensen (Combat Commander & Fighting Formations); they really do successfully avoid the "full of uncertainties" syndrome. So it's possible to achieve, but somewhat rare, alas.

====

As long as I am getting advice and answers from you experienced players, may I ask about another uncertainty I have? Thanks in advance for any help on the following hesitations...

14.31 Fleeing:
Fleeing is not a "state" to be remembered analogous to "disrupted" and "demoralized", right? Rather, it is a one-turn action which occurs as a result of a failed recovery roll, right?

I grok that when I activate a demoralized unit, I must try to recover it, and failed recovery means that it flees in that action segment. But on the next turn if I activate it again, then because it is (still) demoralized, I must (again) try to recover it, and so (again) it will either fail and flee, or recover... right?

(That's what I understand from "If the fleeing unit or leader cannot reach a safe hex on the first turn, and if it fails to recover on future turns, then it must keep fleeing at maximum movement rate toward the closest safe hex until it occupies it." - it sounds like you keep checking recovery for the demoralized unit in each turn that you activate it.)

E.g. to make this more concrete:
In turn 1, the opponent attacks my unit X and makes it demoralized. Then I activate X and do a recovery roll (I must do that with X). The roll fails. So X stays demoralized and flees (moving away from enemy units to a safe hex).
On turn 2 I activate X again and so again I do a recovery roll. The roll fails. So if X's current location is still "safe", it simply stays there cowering. (Right? Or does it move further?)
On turn 3 I activate X again and try another recovery roll, this time succeeding. So the "demoralized" marker is removed from X and the unit is back in normal "good order" again.

And to confirm: I only have to try recovering a demoralized unit IF I activate it. I understand the point of rule 14.42 Required Recovery to be simply that IF I have any demoralized units, THEN I cannot pass. I.e. if I have many activations and have already activated all my undemoralized units and activated all my artillery, then I will necessarily activate some demoralized unit because there's nothing else left to activate, and I can't pass.

But I could choose to activate many other units first in the turn, and if my number of available activations for the turn runs out before I've activated a given demoralized unit, then I simply don't roll recovery for that unit, and it simply does nothing that turn, just like any other unit which didn't get activated... right? A demoralized unit doesn't somehow automatically try to recover or flee even though it never got activated, does it?

===

The rules about fleeing are also murky. "It must spend its entire movement allowance in moving away from enemy units toward the closest safe hex" ... what if no matter which direction it moves, it is moving closer to some enemy unit? (I.e. it's basically surrounded.) This fleeing rule seems vague (as in many wargames, I must agree, e.g. Waterloo20 as I recall also was pretty vague about this.)

[Memenne]

"one where English is not his first language"

Oui, c'est moi !

Thank you for the clarifications, gentlemen. I'll play the right way now.

[vince hughes]

As long as I am getting advice and answers from you experienced players, may I ask about another uncertainty I have? Thanks in advance for any help on the following hesitations...

14.31 Fleeing:
Fleeing is not a "state" to be remembered analogous to "disrupted" and "demoralized", right? Rather, it is a one-turn action which occurs as a result of a failed recovery roll, right?

I grok that when I activate a demoralized unit, I must try to recover it, and failed recovery means that it flees in that action segment. But on the next turn if I activate it again, then because it is (still) demoralized, I must (again) try to recover it, and so (again) it will either fail and flee, or recover... right?

(That's what I understand from "If the fleeing unit or leader cannot reach a safe hex on the first turn, and if it fails to recover on future turns, then it must keep fleeing at maximum movement rate toward the closest safe hex until it occupies it." - it sounds like you keep checking recovery for the demoralized unit in each turn that you activate it.)

E.g. to make this more concrete:
In turn 1, the opponent attacks my unit X and makes it demoralized. Then I activate X and do a recovery roll (I must do that with X). The roll fails. So X stays demoralized and flees (moving away from enemy units to a safe hex).
On turn 2 I activate X again and so again I do a recovery roll. The roll fails. So if X's current location is still "safe", it simply stays there cowering. (Right? Or does it move further?)
On turn 3 I activate X again and try another recovery roll, this time succeeding. So the "demoralized" marker is removed from X and the unit is back in normal "good order" again.

And to confirm: I only have to try recovering a demoralized unit IF I activate it. I understand the point of rule 14.42 Required Recovery to be simply that IF I have any demoralized units, THEN I cannot pass. I.e. if I have many activations and have already activated all my undemoralized units and activated all my artillery, then I will necessarily activate some demoralized unit because there's nothing else left to activate, and I can't pass.

But I could choose to activate many other units first in the turn, and if my number of available activations for the turn runs out before I've activated a given demoralized unit, then I simply don't roll recovery for that unit, and it simply does nothing that turn, just like any other unit which didn't get activated... right? A demoralized unit doesn't somehow automatically try to recover or flee even though it never got activated, does it?

===

The rules about fleeing are also murky. "It must spend its entire movement allowance in moving away from enemy units toward the closest safe hex" ... what if no matter which direction it moves, it is moving closer to some enemy unit? (I.e. it's basically surrounded.) This fleeing rule seems vague (as in many wargames, I must agree, e.g. Waterloo20 as I recall also was pretty vague about this.)

Russ,

Probably, whilst I am typing this, somebody will answer you before me and make it a waste of time and may also contradict whats said and we'll have another debate LOL ! That said, I will work through your post as after a quick read I can see a thing or two you are doing incorrectly, so bare with me. I will try to give references to show where your mistakes are corrected for you in the rules... Here goes, I'm going in !!!

FLEEING: First thing I tell newish players is that try to think of fleeing and demoralised as the loss of control by the player. From here on in 'The System' takes care of them and decides where they move. In two player games, it can be very annoying to see aunit flee where you do not wish it to, but it is the system and no matter what your preference is, if it does not go with the fleeing system, then that's tough. OK, if you have that in your mind now, let's go forward (ironic with fleeing as the subject).

Fleeing only occurs to DEM units that fail a recovery roll and that are located in a hex not considered safe. When talking of 'safe' its often useful to forget town and woods hex because a safe hex is actually any hex that the DEM unit can not be attacked with a DF or AT fire that can hurt it (!4.31 para.1) .... in most cases that means in range and LOS of an enemy that could hurt it.

Here we already have a what if. The phrase "That could hurt it" is all sweeping and not actual. Therefore, if your DEM unit X is 2 hexes away from an enemy INF unit with a range of 3 hexes, then obviously it could hurt it. This applies whether the said enemy unit has already activated, is in assault, is also DEM. In other words, other circumstances the enemy may be in are not for the your unit to worry about. They just know that this enemy unit "Could hurt it"

Now we have established there is a dangerous enemy near enough to make DEM unit X flee, your unit rolls dice to recover. Also remember, recovery roll required is '1' LESS than your actual morale. So a unit with a morale of 8 and is DEM (-1) now has a morale of 7. He will need to roll 6 or less to recover.

Your first error here. If he succeeds in recovery, he becomes DISRUPTED not good order (14.41).

If he fails, he will now need to flee because of that enemy unit I mentioned.

When fleeing you must ALWAYS move FURTHER away from the enemies that can hurt you. Some people initially believe they can keep the same distance away and flee, even if it is possible to flee further away. This is where rule 14.33 is misread. The option to flee and keep the same distance is only an option if it is impossible to get further away. As an example, your first flee hex may only be able to maintain the 2 hex gap from the enemy, once that hex is moved into, an opportunity may arise where a hex further away presents itself. If that is the case, the further away option MUST be taken.

If when failing a DEM recovery roll and the flee move kicks in, it maybe that you are unable to flee at all. This could be because if your unit flees from that enemy 2 hexes away it would find itself in the first hex it entered in range of another enemy unit. If this happens then its flee option has gone. THEN you should check to see if it can flee maintaining the distance from the original enemy unit as this might open up options for the flee. If that too is a non-option, then the unit stays in place.

Remember when fleeing:
a) The enemy may Opp Fire at you.
b) You MUST move further away from dangerous enemies
c) You CAN move the same distance away ONLY if b does not apply
d) Do not get upset you have no choice in the matter, its The System guiding them.

In the next turn, if they fail recovery again they would flee if they still can be hurt by an enemy, but stay if no enemy can hurt them. This INCLUDES open hexes AND bombardment plays NO PART of them being in danger. So yes, if they were 12 hexes from all enemy troops and not in range of any of them, they would stay in that hex, hugging the ground despite any bombardment falling on them.

If they DO recover, they become DISRUPTED.(added this a second time to reinforce the rule - 14.41)

On required recovery, you are correct. No 'PASSING' if you have any unactivated DEM units, but you can activate the heck you want in any order before ever having to be forced to roll a recovery for a DEM unit. If they are all you have left, then it will be time to start rolling for them.

Also, imagine you are playing a game and for whatever reason there is a DEM unit stacked with a DIS unit and there may be some other reason why you do not wish to attempt a recovery of the DEM unit. Even if this was your last stack that needs activation, you could first just activate the DIS unit first and not the DEM and stall for one more FOW roll.(plus the opponents next FOW).

So again you are right. If a DEM unit does not get activated before FOW, then it does nothing, stays in place and a new turn begins.

I think I have covered everything

Flee further away when you can
Flee the same distance in hexes away if unable to flee further
Stay in place if neither of the above options occur.

One thing on that. If in an assault, a DEM unit that fails will have to leave the hex. Again, per the fleeing rules, (if he survives any allowed free hits that might occur) ... Make sure he exits to a hex further from the enemy. If that does not apply, he will still need to leave the hex. The only reason I can think he would remain in the hex was if there were 6 assaults in the hexes surrounding his hex (can not leave an assault and enter another) OR he is in an ENTRENCHMENT. Remember, DEM units do not need to flee from entrenchments.

[vince hughes]

"one where English is not his first language"

Oui, c'est moi !

Thank you for the clarifications, gentlemen. I'll play the right way now.

Mem,

I hope I phrased that politely enough. If I bought French language games, I'd struggle for sure and not get anywhere near your understanding of English.

Are you french or Belgian ? I was in Brussels, Bastogne and Namur this weekend.

[Memenne]

Vince,

You were absolutely polite ! English is not my first language indeed, and I have often difficulties with it, particularly with past tenses : I never know if I must say "I was" or "I have been". I play every week ASL with an American opponent, and I think I badly hurt his ears each time a use a past tense...

I am Belgian, from Brussels.
Next time you're in the vicinity, we could have a meeting and I could show you the Belgian way of sprinkling OBA in PG

Manu

[vince hughes]

Damn, I missed you then.

I go once or twice a year, so sometime in August to October may be another visit.

We tend to stay at the Hilton in Rogier which has great value long weekend deals, but can also be at friends in Kampenhout, Berg or Steenokkerzeel.

On the Sunday evening we had a nice meal in Sablons. Love Belgium and there are few places I haven't visited now. But the food and Beer will keep bringing me back !

Either way, what part of Brussels you at ? My friend in kampenhout (just outside the city) has PG too.