09-14-2013, 08:04 PM,
|
|
RE: 4th Edition Rules - comment now or forever shut yer trap!
I suppose a few things that I would like to see defined more are: Minefields; whether lone leaders count as units and are affected the same and if minefields affect friendly units as well, especially in the case of fleeing friendly units. Also, what defensive direct fire modifiers units get against air attacks, especially when hills are concerned. I know units can be spotted but whether they get a -1 defense modifier or not. Also concerning leaders in entrenchments, if their recovery gets a bonus as well. I guess there is some confusion to differentiating leaders from actual units in some cases.
|
|
09-14-2013, 09:31 PM,
|
|
campsawyer
First Lieutenant
|
Posts: 1,023
Threads: 34
Joined: May 2012
|
|
RE: 4th Edition Rules - comment now or forever shut yer trap!
Defensive personal AT weapons
I have also thought that only allowing assaulting units to get the benefits of personal AT weapons seem a little odd. As there are many documented instances of them being used against attacking units. But I also feel the simple solution of allowing defensive AT shots in assaults does tip the balance of the assault. I believe that a more radical change my need to be considered as the use of a AT shot is limiting.
My thought is to continue to have only certain infantry units and must roll a 5 or 6 to use. If successful, instead of getting an AT shot, there would be a +1 column shift to the assault table. This +1 would be cumulative for all successful 5 or 6 die roll and the first step loss must be taken on an AFV.
My reasons for such a radical change are these are a few. First, the personal AT weapons rule is one I feel is still a bit odd and not complete, much like the M18 move and shoot rule, and can be reevaluated for a better approach. Second, this would allow for both offensive and defensive use. Both sides can use this against AFV's but it is not guaranteed that is will work. By changing from a assault result and AT shot to just an assault result this keeps the attack in the method that it started with. The assault table is good for resolving close combat, let's keep the results there. Third, this is scalable to use personal AT weapons against fortifications. There are many documented instances that American bazooka's being used against pillboxes. With this the use of personal AT weapons can be used for this by adding a rule allowing the qualified infantry units to roll for there use. If successful they can get the +1 shift on entrenchments and strongpoints, with the first step loss taken on a unit in either of those two.
I know this might be radical, but I feel something like this needs to be done as the current rule feels like it is a dead end if we try to modify in some way for other uses and I also feel that something needs to be done for this.
Let the discussion begin...
|
|
09-14-2013, 10:59 PM,
(This post was last modified: 09-14-2013, 11:00 PM by vince hughes.)
|
|
vince hughes
Second Lieutenant
|
Posts: 1,310
Threads: 61
Joined: May 2012
|
|
RE: 4th Edition Rules - comment now or forever shut yer trap!
Alan,
As the defender in most of the Westwall or Invasion of Germany scenarios, I hear the pain of the inability to use fausts etc against attacking tanks. As I said above though, if INF etc get to use them all the time, it may tip the balance too far the other way.
I know that is not what you are proposing, but for now the balance is about right. Otherwise AFV's are going to become almost obsolete.
Going with your idea where both sides can use them and then gain columns. I would modify that idea (as its swinging both ways) to having to roll a 6 and not 5,6 for each INF/GREN unit etc. However, where this is unfair is that column shifts then effect the INF involved for absolutely no reason.
I say keep the rule the same OR if both sides to get it, then AT weapon checks should be a rolled 6 (per unit checking) and not 5,6
|
|
09-14-2013, 11:26 PM,
|
|
campsawyer
First Lieutenant
|
Posts: 1,023
Threads: 34
Joined: May 2012
|
|
RE: 4th Edition Rules - comment now or forever shut yer trap!
(09-14-2013, 10:59 PM)vince hughes Wrote: Alan,
As the defender in most of the Westwall or Invasion of Germany scenarios, I hear the pain of the inability to use fausts etc against attacking tanks. As I said above though, if INF etc get to use them all the time, it may tip the balance too far the other way.
I know that is not what you are proposing, but for now the balance is about right. Otherwise AFV's are going to become almost obsolete.
Going with your idea where both sides can use them and then gain columns. I would modify that idea (as its swinging both ways) to having to roll a 6 and not 5,6 for each INF/GREN unit etc. However, where this is unfair is that column shifts then effect the INF involved for absolutely no reason.
I say keep the rule the same OR if both sides to get it, then AT weapon checks should be a rolled 6 (per unit checking) and not 5,6
I understand you issues with this however I don't think the infantry if penalized. First, if the usage rolls fails, no shifts are applied. Second, the first step loss would be required to be taken on the AFV. Third, typically a AFV/INF combo had the AFV's going first, if they were hit that would have a effect on the INF. Loss of AFV's was a very demoralizing factor to accompanying INF's.
|
|
09-14-2013, 11:45 PM,
|
|
vince hughes
Second Lieutenant
|
Posts: 1,310
Threads: 61
Joined: May 2012
|
|
RE: 4th Edition Rules - comment now or forever shut yer trap!
The infantry do suffer because you are rolling on a higher column. Therefore their chances of an M2 check increase.
2 x INF and tank advance into a hex with a 2 x GREN and Leader.
2 x GREN and leader would usually be a 13col (6+6+leader) when defending unless leader adds 1 from a fire mod he might have.
They roll for fausts and roll a 5 & a 6 (one roll each)
This now puts them on the 24col instead of 13col.
On the 13col, the attacking INF had a 1 in 6 chance of No Effect against them, then M, M1, M2 with a kill on 5 or 6 (or 1 in 3).
Now, they will be on M1 minimum with a double chance of a kill, half of which are a double kills too !).
Even if the INF don't get take a hit, they have a 87% chance of suffering an M2 as opposed to a 50% chance under previous rules.
They'd actually be better off not taking an AFV with them. In fact, if the attackers were 2 x US INF and an M4, they would have 21pts for a 18col. If they took 3 x INF, it would still be an 18col. You may argue that the tank gives them a +1col, but the risks of this far outweigh reward. That is not historical as combined INF and tank in Westwall battles in the town were very common. Yes there was risk, but balanced with reward. These proposed column shifts upwards for defenders are too drastic.
No, this is not working for me at all.
|
|
|