In the attached screenshot, the question is whether or not the German Lieutenant circled in black can see the American circled in red.
My understanding of the LoS rules is that LoS is not blocked. The range is not in question, due to the Lt. being at 60m, but the question is whether or not the hill including hex 0414 blocks line of sight.
Page 22, section 8.42 is the relevant rule here since they are at different elevations. None of the 4 sub sections of 8.42 apply, so I figure that LoS is not blocked. I understand that logically, the Major and the troops in his stack would stay as close as possible to the hill in question to limit their exposure, but the rules make no distinction in that regard.
This is one of those questions that APL did not work out very well. In the games I've been playing, per my rewrite, LOS would be blocked at hex 0812. That is because we use a version of this chart:
Of course, 1-2-3 should be thought of as 20-40-60 meters. This is from an old thread, 8.4 Elevation makes no sense to me.
... More and more, people around the world are coming to realize that the world is flat!
(09-29-2025, 06:22 AM)Col. Sonichu Wrote: Hi gang, got a LoS question for you all.
In the attached screenshot, the question is whether or not the German Lieutenant circled in black can see the American circled in red.
My understanding of the LoS rules is that LoS is not blocked. The range is not in question, due to the Lt. being at 60m, but the question is whether or not the hill including hex 0414 blocks line of sight.
Page 22, section 8.42 is the relevant rule here since they are at different elevations. None of the 4 sub sections of 8.42 apply, so I figure that LoS is not blocked. I understand that logically, the Major and the troops in his stack would stay as close as possible to the hill in question to limit their exposure, but the rules make no distinction in that regard.
It sure looks like the LOS is blocked to me.
My interpretation is that the US Major is right below the 20-meter contour line. He can't see to the top of that far away, 60-meter hilltop, and they can't see him, either.
(09-29-2025, 06:22 AM)Col. Sonichu Wrote: Hi gang, got a LoS question for you all.
In the attached screenshot, the question is whether or not the German Lieutenant circled in black can see the American circled in red.
My understanding of the LoS rules is that LoS is not blocked. The range is not in question, due to the Lt. being at 60m, but the question is whether or not the hill including hex 0414 blocks line of sight.
Page 22, section 8.42 is the relevant rule here since they are at different elevations. None of the 4 sub sections of 8.42 apply, so I figure that LoS is not blocked. I understand that logically, the Major and the troops in his stack would stay as close as possible to the hill in question to limit their exposure, but the rules make no distinction in that regard.
It sure looks like the LOS is blocked to me.
My interpretation is that the US Major is right below the 20-meter contour line. He can't see to the top of that far away, 60-meter hilltop, and they can't see him, either.
I agree with Tambu's interpretation, the LOS is blocked as the slope contour is adjacent to the targeted unit. Realistically, I think that this LOS example would be blocked as well.
Although to be fair, the 4th Edition LOS rules are confusing and would certainly benefit from better illustrated examples of LOS.
Peter's point makes sense to me as there would be some kind of a summit on that long ridge on the Vicinity of Hex 0812 that would block LOS from the high 60-meter, hilltop.
(09-29-2025, 06:22 AM)Col. Sonichu Wrote: Hi gang, got a LoS question for you all.
In the attached screenshot, the question is whether or not the German Lieutenant circled in black can see the American circled in red.
My understanding of the LoS rules is that LoS is not blocked. The range is not in question, due to the Lt. being at 60m, but the question is whether or not the hill including hex 0414 blocks line of sight.
Page 22, section 8.42 is the relevant rule here since they are at different elevations. None of the 4 sub sections of 8.42 apply, so I figure that LoS is not blocked. I understand that logically, the Major and the troops in his stack would stay as close as possible to the hill in question to limit their exposure, but the rules make no distinction in that regard.
Wow, this is a really good question.
It looks like LOS is blocked, but the darn PG maps never show the summits of hills or ridges, unlike the old maps from PanzerBlitz that were very clear.
8.42LOS is BLOCKED if both the spotting and target hex are on DIFFERENT elevations, and:
one or more slope hexes of higher elevation than the higher unit lies between the two hexes;
one or more slope hexes of the same elevation as the higher unit lies between the two hexes and the slope hex is closer (not equidistant) to the lower unit than the higher one;
a limiting terrain hex that blocks LOS (for example, town or woods), that is higher elevation than the higher unit, lies between the two hexes;
a limiting terrain hex that blocks LOS (for example, town or woods), of the same elevation as the higher unit, lies between the two hexes and the limiting terrain hex is closer (not equidistant) to the lower unit than the higher one.
So is there one or more slope hexes of higher elevation than the higher unit lies between the two hexes?
No.
So is there one or more slope hexes of the same elevation as the higher unit lies between the two hexes and the slope hex is closer (not equidistant) to the lower unit than the higher one?
8.42LOS is BLOCKED if both the spotting and target hex are on DIFFERENT elevations, and:
one or more slope hexes of higher elevation than the higher unit lies between the two hexes;
one or more slope hexes of the same elevation as the higher unit lies between the two hexes and the slope hex is closer (not equidistant) to the lower unit than the higher one;
a limiting terrain hex that blocks LOS (for example, town or woods), that is higher elevation than the higher unit, lies between the two hexes;
a limiting terrain hex that blocks LOS (for example, town or woods), of the same elevation as the higher unit, lies between the two hexes and the limiting terrain hex is closer (not equidistant) to the lower unit than the higher one.
Let's go down the bullets and answer each one.
So is there one or more slope hexes of higher elevation than the higher unit lies between the two hexes?
No.
So is there one or more slope hexes of the same elevation as the higher unit lies between the two hexes and the slope hex is closer (not equidistant) to the lower unit than the higher one?
No.
So is there a limiting terrain hex that blocks LOS (for example, town or woods), that is higher elevation than the higher unit, lies between the two hexes?
So is there a limiting terrain hex that blocks LOS (for example, town or woods), of the same elevation as the higher unit, lies between the two hexes and the limiting terrain hex is closer (not equidistant) to the lower unit than the higher one?
No.
Thus by the rule only, the LOS is not blocked and the two units can see each other.
PG uses a what I call a "gentle slope rule" as opposed to a steep slope that most games use. (The Line of Battle Series [LOB] from MMP also uses such a concept). This is not ASL where slopes cause blind hexes nor are the hills plateaus such as in PanzerBlitz and other such games.
Since I know many of you will try "reality arguments" are are some: Go to Gettysburg and take the "The Last Chance for Victory" maps with you and you will grasp the gentle slope concept very well when you get up on to the highest ground.. There is also a design for effect concept here. Most of the long range spottings will be used to call in Bombardment Fire, thus the 'spotting' does not have to be precise. Some or all of the enemy unit was spotted and artillery, an area fire weapon, is called in. The enemy can be anywhere in the hex (LOB also uses this concept) and thus enough could be seen just enough for bombardment fire to be called.
Also, and most importantly, the LOS rules are not as difficult as many other tactical games so players are not spending time trying to figure out complex LOSs.
