APCs receiving DF & BF?

[Grognard Gunny]

Here's one: The Definition (pg 5, 4th ed.) of "Open-Top AFV" says: "An AFV with no armor on top, making it vulnerable to step losses from direct and bombardment fire." (That is as it should be, but there is no protection from any fire for the troops if that is the case.) On the other hand, Rule 7.25, Armor Immunity, says: "If a unit has a printed armor value, it is immune to all but an X or #X result on the direct fire or bombardment fire tables. If the unit is an APC, any unit or leader it is transporting is immune well." (This negates the openness of the APC.)

The question arises are the APCs (open-top type) subject to BP and DF or no? If they are immune it does seem too easy for the troops... but they are exposed to the fire (because of the open top). Perhaps a "Column shift" would be in order?

GG

[cjsiam]

I think you have to go to the Combat Tables....
For both DF and BF and X will cause an M2 morale check on an open top AFV (APC included...)
and #X will cause a step loss on one......

M effects don't cause damage....
X effects cause M2 checks (vs. M for closed top)
#X forces open to lose a step.

[Grognard Gunny]

That would seem to take care of the situation without trying to separate the "carried" from the "carrier".... (The rules are ALREADY complicated enough!) Any others out there? (Before I make a final decision on the matter.)

[triangular_cube]

I think you have to go to the Combat Tables....
For both DF and BF and X will cause an M2 morale check on an open top AFV (APC included...)
and #X will cause a step loss on one......

M effects don't cause damage....
X effects cause M2 checks (vs. M for closed top)
#X forces open to lose a step.

3rd edition and up an X causes a step loss (potentially) to Open topped, not just M2. The #X forces you to take it there instead of soaking off against walking INF.

[triangular_cube]

That would seem to take care of the situation without trying to separate the "carried" from the "carrier".... (The rules are ALREADY complicated enough!) Any others out there? (Before I make a final decision on the matter.)

In the literal sense, the carried and the carrier are one unit when embarked. If the APC is destroyed so are the occupants. If the APC fails a morale check, the occupant receives the same status and are forced to disembark, etc.

[Grognard Gunny]

The question comes when the APC is afforded the armor protection of a "tank" when the rules are split on the matter. (Or so it seems anyway.) The troops ARE in the open to a certain extent.  My question pertains as to how to handle the situation without giving the carried troops the blanket immunity afforded the tanks.

GG

[Grognard Gunny]

Rule 7.41 reads: Direct fire and bombardment fire affects all units in the target hex except for AFVs. AFVs (and anything loaded on APCs) are only affected by an "x" or "#X" result. (Which would give the troops loaded on open top APCs the same protection as that of a tank!)

I don't think this is right. SOME additional combat "penalty" should be afforded troops carried in open top ACPs. I just haven't figured out what that penalty is just yet and if there exists a rule to handle the situation.

GG

[triangular_cube]

Rule 7.41 reads: Direct fire and bombardment fire affects all units in the target hex except for AFVs. AFVs (and anything loaded on APCs) are only affected by an "x" or "#X" result. (Which would give the troops loaded on open top APCs the same protection as that of a tank!)

I don't think this is right. SOME additional combat "penalty" should be afforded troops carried in open top ACPs. I just haven't figured out what that penalty is just yet and if there exists a rule to handle the situation.

GG

Well a tank would be a closed top AFV, not subject to step loss on X, and receiving a base morale check. So the protection the APC and it inhabitants receive is less than that (vulnerable to a loss on X, and receiving an M2), being only shielded from morale checks (M, M1, M2) on the table. (unless we are discussing 2nd edition, which we are not)

[Grognard Gunny]

At present, the tanks are afforded a morale check with an "X" on the DF/BF tables. APCs are afforded an M2 morale check on an "X" and  step loss on the "#X" results on the charts. That seems to work.

GG

[triangular_cube]

At present, the tanks are afforded a morale check with an "X" on the DF/BF tables. APCs are afforded an M2 morale check on an "X" and  step loss on the "#X" results on the charts. That seems to work.

GG

This is incorrect per the 3rd and 4th edition charts. Are you pulling from a homebrew chart?