[Rules] 6.42 Firepower Enhancement

[Shad]

That's a strong counterargument, cjsiam, but I'm going to fight a rearguard action by protesting that nowhere in the rules does it say a leader needs to activate to FIRE in order to donate a combat modifier to a unit.

6.2, which you quoted, is silent on the usage of combat modifiers. It shouldn't be silent, but it is.

This is clearly an oversight in several spots, and I'm fine with an official clarification, but I stand before you undaunted that the rules as they are today allow this sneaky behavior.

Related and relevant note, if you activate 3 units in your activation phase to move, then move one unit and place a MOVED marker atop it. Is that unit no longer activated? You are saying it is now de-activated. I disagree. I think it is activated with a M/F marker until the activation phase ends. This would allow it to use CM or MM.

Original intent? Probably not.

But is the timing of the end of an individual unit's activation stated in the rules? If it is, I've missed it.

[cjsiam]

Hmmm...

You're basing your interpretation on a few things (I think--correct me if I'm wrong):
1) "nowhere in the rules does it say a leader needs to activate to FIRE in order to donate a combat modifier to a unit"
2) "6.2, which you quoted, is silent on the usage of combat modifiers"
3) "Related and relevant note, if you activate 3 units in your activation phase to move, then move one unit and place a MOVED marker atop it. Is that unit no longer activated? You are saying it is now de-activated. I disagree. I think it is activated with a M/F marker until the activation phase ends. This would allow it use to CM or MM."

I consider the following in a construct of the rules mechanic which refutes your thesis: (RAW is Italics, Emphasis mine)

A)
1.2 Action Segment: The activation of a unit, leader, or stack of units, or a group of units and subordinate leaders under the direction of a single senior leader. Activated units may perform either fire or movement (morale recovery is a move action and assault is a fire action) (3.13).

The Above says Leaders must be activated to either FIRE or MOVE..... NO WHERE does it say that you may both MOVE and FIRE in a turn....
Your thesis considers the MOVE ....then because the unit retains "activation" of some sort---it can add it's CF to a DF (direct FIRE) combat.
That leader will thus have participated in both a MOVE activation, and FIRE activation (adding factor to FIRE activation of INF unit).
I think this is beyond stretch and into violation... I continue...

(for completeness):
1.1 Action Segments: In an action segment, a player can activate one unit, or a stack of units, or a leader and all units of his type (regular or tank) in his hex and all adjacent hexes,or a string of adjacent leaders in descending rank order (plus all units with or adjacent to those leaders). Activated units may either move or fire in their action segment.

Again---a unit may either move or fire in their action segment.  So in the leaders action segment he moved....now you want him to contribute his DF to a FIRE...

3.13 Unit Actions
Once units are done moving and firing, mark them with Moved/Fired markers. Units marked with Moved/Fired markers may not activate again in the current turn except through Random Events (see Optional Rules).

My reading of this says that once a unit has a Moved/Fired marker---it is no longer activated.....
It indicates it cannot activate again---it changes state to NOT activated, and my not activate again...it's turn is done...
Your contention is it remains "activated"....Even with that contention--recall that the leader was ACTIVATED with a MOVE activation---
are you now saying that the previous activation to move is somehow "transitioned" to a FIRE activation?... if it remains activated, would it not
still be a MOVE activation?

3.13 preceding paragraphs:
3.13 Unit ActionsThe activated unit, leader or group performs actions in no specific order, but all actions must be designated before the first is performed. Actions are either Movement or Fire. Players need not pre-designate directions or targets - they just state which units will move and which will fire this action segment.
"Movement" includes moving (5.0), digging in (16.2), limbering/unlimbering (5.63) or attempting to recover morale (14.4). "Fire" includes direct fire (10.0), bombardment (9.0), anti-tank fire (11.0) and assault (12.0, even though initiating or joining an assault involves moving into the assault hex).

Here the RAW differentiate what MOVE and FIRE activations can do.....
If you MOVE activated---you don't get to FIRE..... (I assume you agree on that)....

So your final palisade must come down to --- "applying a Leader CF to an infantry unit's DF attack does NOT constitute a DF Fire Combat (which would have
required a FIRE activation) on the part of the leader" --so even though the leader Activated to Move---and after moving "retains"{somehow} Activated status...{I contend invalid} he is not engaged in a FIRE attack---but the DF can be used by the INF in IT'S Fire attack....

ok--
6.42 Firepower EnhancementAn activated, undemoralized leader may add his combat modifier to the direct fire value of one unit in his own hex. For example, a German leader with a combat modifier of 1 may increase the direct fire value of an INF unit in his hex from 5 to 6. Defending leaders in assaults (12.0) can add their combat bonuses to defending units even though they're not activated. If a hex contains multiple units and leaders, then each leader may add his combat bonus to the firepower of only one unit, and each unit may receive a firepower bonus from only one leader.

Notice here that the fact the defending leader is NOT activated (in assault hex) being able to add it's DF is called out---indicating this is not the norm...
Reading of this can be " even though the Defending leaders are not activated, they can add their DF Bonus" (correct I think) OR "even though the defending units
are not activated the defending leader can add their DF bonus" (I think an incorrect confusion of subject of sentence---and in assault defending units are by definition
not activated in that segment---so 2nd interpretation is incorrect)....

This indicates to me that the special case presented---that an Unactivated Leader Can add his DF ---is the special case....
that the leader needs to be activated (and not with to MOVE---must be to FIRE {there is only (to FIRE) or (to MOVE)} )
This reinforces (to me) that applying the CF requires an Activation (to FIRE)....as it would for combing DF or BF by the Leader....

Adding your CF to a DF attack of a unit seems to indicate that the leader was involved in the DF attack....now you may have moved only
one hex in your example---but would that be any different then moving 4 hexes and then adding your DF to an attack ---say you chain activated
and brought up a stronger CF leader 4 hexes into the firing line---would that be valid???? he spent the whole turn moving, and then adds his
+1 or +2 to the DF attack?  In your interpretation---that would be valid?......me thinks not...

This gets worse ----think about what your idea entails----or your question---"nowhere does it say a unit needs to activate to Fire to apply it's CF"....
so if I have a leader in a hex with two infantry....the INF can self activate---the leader does not activate---BUT the leader CF can be added?...
and then the leader helps a unit rally? or moves?....
I think the interpretation is that once a unit uses its Factors (CF or Morale(to recover) ) it must activate to do so....
ARE you contending that CF can be applied (for DF attack or combining hexes) WITHOUT activation---LIKE the morale roll assistance that
a leader can provide?....that is quite a step...

7.46 Moved/Fired Markers
Once a unit has performed any type of fire, place a Moved/Fired marker on it to show that it may perform no further action this turn (exception: a "Free Shot" when all enemy units exit an assault hex, 12.12). 
 
This is in the FIRE section---but I think the stricture applies with placement of Moved/Fired Markers(see 3.13 above)...
Remember---we move units individually, at the completion of movement we place Moved/Fired Markers(above somewhere)......this is to show that it may perform no further action this turn.

Is adding a DF to an INF DF attack an action? (I think it clearly involves the moving leader participating in the DF....thus an action...thus illegal....) continuing

10.0 Direct FireActivated units may use their Direct Fire values to fire on hexes containing spotted enemy units within range. Direct Fire affects all enemy units in the target hex.

And above we showed that a leader who moved may only do a limited set of things---doing a DF action was not one of them...

I contend that the rules indicate that a units Activated status ends with the placement of the Moved/Fired counter.....
At that point he can do not further action....
Applying his CF to a FIRE action involves the leader participating in another action (a FIRE instead of his MOVE activation at that...) and would thus be illegal.
 
I'd change a couple words to clarify the rules more---basically that placing the Moved/Fired ends the activated status of a unit for that turn....he can do no more (other
then what's called out in

6.2 Leader ActivationA leader may only be activated if it is not currently marked with a Moved/Fired marker. A leader with a Moved/Fired marker may assist friendly units undergoing morale checks (14.1) or defending against an assault (12.4), but may not activate friendly units (3.1), assist recovering units (14.4), or initiate an assault (12.11).

Appreciate you taking time to clarify with me....I think this is quite significant actually ...

[Shad]

I'm enjoying this immensely, I hope that comes through.

And I think you've got me.

[Blackcloud6]

I say no, the leader that moved cannot add his combat modifier nor direct units to fire because once he is done moving he is marked as having been activated and is therefore no longer activated

Cite your rule for that, please.

That's easy:
 3.13 Unit Actions
The activated unit, leader or group performs actions in no specific order, but all actions must be designated before the first is performed. Actions are either Movement or Fire. Players need not pre-designate directions or targets - they just state which units will move and which will fire this action segment.
 
"Movement" includes moving (5.0), digging in (16.2), limbering/unlimbering (5.63) or attempting to recover morale (14.4). "Fire" includes direct fire (10.0), bombardment (9.0), anti-tank fire (11.0) and assault (12.0, even though initiating or joining an assault involves moving into the assault hex).
 
Once units are done moving and firing, mark them with Moved/Fired markers. Units marked with Moved/Fired markers may not activate again in the current turn except through Random Events (see Optional Rules).

My comments:  The use of "unit" in this rule is all-encompassing because of the heading of the rule, "Unit Actions" and the immediate subsequent sentence: "The activated unit, leader or group performs actions in no specific order, but all actions must be designated before the first is performed."   Furthermore, this reinforces what cjsiam states in his arguments that all actions must be predesignated prior to the first action.     The stand alone term "unit" is not defined in the rules, only specific "combat units," "personnel units," "weapons units" and "transport units" are defined.

This is somewhat loose rule writing of using "unit/units" in a specific and general sense in the same rule.     Nevertheless, with the pre-desgination thing, it is quite clear a moving leader cannot use his fire modifier once he has moved as then he would also be participating in a fire action when he was, in fact, predesignated to move.

[cjsiam]

One of the concepts you have thrown into question Shad is the requirement to activate to use the CF factor.

It is true that when a leader is adjacent, or in, a hex the MF factor can be applied when a unit attempts to Check Morale....
that does not require the leader to activate.....

Can the same be said about the CF?  Can it be applied WITHOUT the leader having to activate?
We (people I've played) have always played that it REQUIRED activation on the part of the Leader to use his CF....
otherwise some of the scenarios I outlined in my response can occur....
So---Do we all agree that applying a CF REQUIRES a leader to Activate to use it? For DF enhancement OR Hex fire combination?

cj

[triangular_cube]

It seems although verbose, we are just dancing around the issue of whether or not adding a combat modifier constitutes a fire action. If it does, the answer is no, if it doesn't the answer is yes. The root of these long rebuttals seems to fall on the assumption that it is, without the rules actually defining it as such. Stressing how the unit is conducting a fire activation, which is not in question, isn't really clarifying the issue to the degree you are supposing. 

The other thing you guys are going back and forth on is whether the leader is activated following the move within the same action segment. Consider the reverse then, so we can get to the core of the issue instead of this side issue. 

The leader IS stacked with the unit. Both are activated, the unit fires with the activated leader's modifier, and THEN the leader moves out of the hex and has its moved/fired marker placed on. We circle back to core point 1. Point 2 being a distraction. 

I actually always read this as disallowed based on the rules, but digging into the points Shad brought up I'm considering shifting to allowed,  but undecided. 

That being said, 95% of you all play with a laundry list of house rules, so does it really matter what the rules even say? Y'all gonna do what you want either way.

[Grognard Gunny]

Amen, brother. Another reason why paying face to face (or any variation thereof) is such a mess. .....and it shouldn't be that way! Answer; Fix the rules to reduce ambiguity to an absolute minimum!

GG

[Shad]

The leader IS stacked with the unit. Both are activated, the unit fires with the activated leader's modifier, and THEN the leader moves out of the hex and has its moved/fired marker placed on. We circle back to core point 1. Point 2 being a distraction.

I wish I had thought of this eloquent alternate example.

I would absolutely allow it *shrug*. Only usage of morale modifier is explicitly defined in the rules. Combat modifier is not.

[goosebrown]

But what happens if the second stack contains a mortar firing it’s third smoke round of the game with a commissar when night sighting rules are in effect. Oh the hex is surroubded by bocage in a heavy jungle?

[triangular_cube]

I guess another question to raise, is if the example does NOT constitute a fire activation, what action of a leader would? I haven't done a deep read of the rules with this in mind, but if it functionally excludes a leader from ever making a fire activation... explicit or not... im guessing it does count as one. Or was the distinction of move/fire only really mentioned in relation to units? 

Second guessing a lot of basic rules with this all i guess. 

Have to read up on it thoroughly later....