Poll: Is this usage of combat modifier valid?
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[Rules] 6.42 Firepower Enhancement
03-01-2023, 01:58 PM, (This post was last modified: 03-01-2023, 02:15 PM by Shad.)
#1
6.42 Firepower Enhancement
Quote:6.42 Firepower Enhancement
An activated, undemoralized leader may add his combat modifier to the direct fire value of one unit in his own hex. For example, a German leader with a combat modifier of 1 may increase the direct fire value of an INF unit in his hex from 5 to 6. Defending leaders in assaults (12.0) can add their combat bonuses to defending units even though they're not activated. If a hex contains multiple units and leaders, then each leader may add his combat bonus to the firepower of only one unit, and each unit may receive a firepower bonus from only one leader.

Scenario Setup
  • you have a leader with +1 combat modifier
  • in an adjacent hex you have an INF platoon
Actions Taken
  • the leader activates to MOVE, and activates the adjacent INF to FIRE
  • the leader moves into the INF hex and stops
  • the INF uses the +1 combat modifier of the leader to augment Direct Fire power
Dispute
  • You can't use the combat modifier because:
    • the leader isn't activated to FIRE (rebuttal: not explicitly required in the RAW)
    • the leader wasn't in the same hex when the activation round began (rebuttal: not explicitly required in the RAW)
  • You can use the combat modifier because:
    • the only stated requirements are:
      • the leader is activated, he is
      • the leader is in the same hex as the unit, he is when the modifier is called for
What do y'all think? Big Grin
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03-01-2023, 03:58 PM, (This post was last modified: 03-02-2023, 01:45 AM by goosebrown.)
#2
RE: 6.42 Firepower Enhancement
You can use the modifier. The rule says activated but does not specify type of activation. It is ambiguous so err on the side of the written rule. This action does not represent the leader laying down actual fire with his 1911 or P38. It represents a leader directing fire and experience to the units in the hex. These are 15 minute turns and it is expected to me that a leader can move to the unit most in need of the leadership.
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03-01-2023, 10:50 PM,
#3
RE: 6.42 Firepower Enhancement
I say no, the leader that moved cannot add his combat modifier nor direct units to fire because once he is done moving he is marked as having been activated and is therefore no longer activated thus does not meet the requirement of 6.42 Firepower Enhancement:  "An activated, undemoralized leader may add his combat modifier to the direct fire value of one unit in his own hex..."  I added bolding and italics.
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03-01-2023, 11:54 PM,
#4
RE: 6.42 Firepower Enhancement
(03-01-2023, 10:50 PM)Blackcloud6 Wrote: I say no, the leader that moved cannot add his combat modifier nor direct units to fire because once he is done moving he is marked as having been activated and is therefore no longer activated

Cite your rule for that, please.

1.2 Definitions reads:

Action Segment: The activation of a unit, leader, or stack of units, or a group of units and subordinate leaders under the direction of a single senior leader. Activated units may perform either fire or movement (morale recovery is a move action and assault is a fire action) (3.13).
Active Player and Units: The player conducting the current action segment is the Active Player, and any units he takes actions with in the current action segment are Active Units.

Nothing in there about being no longer activated after being marked.

Inactive Player and Units: The player not conducting the current action segment is the Inactive Player, and his units are all Inactive Units, though they may be able to conduct Opportunity Fire (13.0).

Explicitly says the OTHER units are inactive because they're not participating in the current action segment.

3.0 Sequence of Play does not support you either.

 B) Action Phase.
The player who won initiative conducts the number of action segments (3.1) determined in the Initiative Determination Phase. Then the other player conducts one action segment. Then players alternate, conducting one action segment each for as long as it takes to complete the turn. Players may pass and not activate any units in a segment if desired. If one player passes and the other passes immediately afterward, the turn ends. A player cannot pass if he has demoralized, unactivated leaders or units on the board. He must use his action segment to attempt to recover morale (14.4) for at least one demoralized leader or unit. If the optional Fog of War rules are used, the roll is made at the end of the next activation after both players have completed at least three activations.

3.13 Unit Actions includes:

Once units are done moving and firing, mark them with Moved/Fired markers. Units marked with Moved/Fired markers may not activate again in the current turn except through Random Events (see Optional Rules).

But does not say they are inactivated.

I argue that during an Action Phase all activated units are... activated. The presence or absence of a moved/fired marker is irrelevant because the Action Phase has not concluded.

And I don't think you can find a rule that disagrees with me.

The combat mod usage is valid RAW.
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03-02-2023, 12:30 AM,
#5
6.42 Firepower Enhancement, the back story
This question has also been put the Consim World PG Support forum and the APL Support Forum.

The issue came to be Alaska's War #1 when Drew moved a timid, but otherwise capable sergeant from the town onto a forward INF platoon. Obviously to move his DF shot to the next column (7). The agreement on the spot was to accept the move. (For my part, if the rules don't say you can't, or confine to a specific process, then you can.) We also agreed to refer this to public and hopefully APL staff arbitration. BtW: He got an 'M' result on my stack, all of whom passed the check.

Thus far, Fred has been the only respondent on ConSim. He repeated the same view as expressed here, or repeated here what he said on COnSim. (I don't care whether the chicken or the egg came first, dinner is on the table.) If anything official comes up, I'll pass it on here.
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03-02-2023, 12:32 AM,
#6
RE: 6.42 Firepower Enhancement
Peter can you link the CSW post?
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03-02-2023, 12:42 AM,
#7
RE: 6.42 Firepower Enhancement
Yes. It may not help much, ConSim is just a running list of posts.

The PG series post
The APL support post

There has been 1 'no' response on the PG series forum as of now. I don't know if Peter McCord is here too.
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03-02-2023, 12:52 AM,
#8
RE: 6.42 Firepower Enhancement
Well...
personally....I think it's pretty clear...
The units are activated...ok, to do what?  INF to Fire....Leader to Move---that's what it means to activate--you assign a type of action
that unit will undertake in the turn...
So even here---the Leader cannot help with the fire--as he is not activated to fire---#1, and #2 he's not in the hex to add...and #3 if he moves
into the hex (before the INF fires) he has done his MOVE---what he activated for---and is thus no longer Activated---and thus not available
when the INF fires....

One of the things being missed (me thinks) is that Activation is either "Activated to MOVE" or "Activated to FIRE" --- there is no just "ACTIVATED" State.
So when it says the Leader must be activated to contribute his fire modifier---that MEANS he has to be Activated to FIRE--- (you're one or the other...FIRE or MOVE
if you are ACTIVATED...) IF he's activated to FIRE---he may not move...if he may not move, he is not in the hex with the unit to Fire, and thus cannot
add his combat factor....
So....
NOPE
.........
It's clearly laid out if you just think it through....the issue is the confusion of "Activated" vs. "Activated to MORE/FIRE"....
YOU PICK ONE upon Activation....
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03-02-2023, 01:10 AM, (This post was last modified: 03-02-2023, 01:10 AM by Shad.)
#9
RE: 6.42 Firepower Enhancement
(03-02-2023, 12:52 AM)cjsiam Wrote: One of the things being missed (me thinks) is that Activation is either "Activated to MOVE" or "Activated to FIRE" --- there is no just "ACTIVATED" State.
So when it says the Leader must be activated to contribute his fire modifier---that MEANS he has to be Activated to FIRE

What's missing is what you just said being anywhere in the rules as written Big Grin  6.42 has no requirement for type of activation.

On the contrary, Rule 14.4 for assisting morale recovery is explicit:
14.4 Recovery
Only a successful recovery attempt can repair the degraded morale status of a unit or leader. When players attempt to improve the morale status of their demoralized and disrupted units it is called "recovery." Units may recover with the assistance of an activated leader, or on their own. Units attempting recovery and leaders assisting them must be activated and may conduct no other action that turn. Place a Moved/Fired marker on any unit that attempts recovery (whether it is successful or not), and any leader who assists a recovery attempt.

This explicit wording in 14.4 and the absence of same in 6.42 is ... Angel
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03-02-2023, 09:15 AM,
#10
RE: 6.42 Firepower Enhancement
(03-02-2023, 01:10 AM)Shad Wrote:
(03-02-2023, 12:52 AM)cjsiam Wrote: One of the things being missed (me thinks) is that Activation is either "Activated to MOVE" or "Activated to FIRE" --- there is no just "ACTIVATED" State.
So when it says the Leader must be activated to contribute his fire modifier---that MEANS he has to be Activated to FIRE

What's missing is what you just said being anywhere in the rules as written Big Grin  6.42 has no requirement for type of activation.

On the contrary, Rule 14.4 for assisting morale recovery is explicit:
14.4 Recovery
Only a successful recovery attempt can repair the degraded morale status of a unit or leader. When players attempt to improve the morale status of their demoralized and disrupted units it is called "recovery." Units may recover with the assistance of an activated leader, or on their own. Units attempting recovery and leaders assisting them must be activated and may conduct no other action that turn. Place a Moved/Fired marker on any unit that attempts recovery (whether it is successful or not), and any leader who assists a recovery attempt.

This explicit wording in 14.4 and the absence of same in 6.42 is ... Angel

Interesting----But....(emphasis mine..Italics are RAW text.)
3.12 Leaders and Activation...
A leader may only activate units at the beginning of his activation (he may not move and then activate units he was not with or adjacent to before moving).

3.13 Unit Actions
The activated unit, leader or group performs actions in no specific order, but all actions must be designated before the first is performed. Actions are either Movement or Fire.

Thus a unit, including a leader, will be activated with EITHER a MOVE or a FIRE Activation....he is not "just activated" he is Activated with ONE or the OTHER.
Quote:("What's missing is what you just said being anywhere in the rules as written Big Grin  6.42 has no requirement for type of activation.")
....That would not seem to be the case...3.13 is explicit---one or the other ... it is binary (even in this day and age....) you are either Activated to Move, or Activated to Fire...


Players need not pre-designate directions or targets - they just state which units will move and which will fire this action segment.

Your example discussed here specifically contradicts this stricture.....the leader is activated to Move into the hex...(he is then marked Move/Fired--or in vassal "Activated"--and he's done)
 
"Movement" includes moving (5.0), digging in (16.2), limbering/unlimbering (5.63) or attempting to recover morale (14.4). "Fire" includes direct fire (10.0), bombardment (9.0), anti-tank fire (11.0) and assault (12.0, even though initiating or joining an assault involves moving into the assault hex).
Once units are done moving and firing, mark them with Moved/Fired markers.

Recall the earlier specification that each UNIT is moved INDIVIDUALLY---thus the leader, at the conclusion of his movement, is marked with Moved/Fired marker(or Activated
in VASSAL)..

Units marked with Moved/Fired markers may not activate again in the current turn except through Random Events (see Optional Rules).

6.2 Leader ActivationA leader may only be activated if it is not currently marked with a Moved/Fired marker. A leader with a Moved/Fired marker may assist friendly units undergoing morale checks (14.1) or defending against an assault (12.4), but may not activate friendly units (3.1), assist recovering units (14.4), or initiate an assault (12.11).

It does not say "assist with Direct Fire".....

6.42 Firepower Enhancement
An activated, undemoralized leader may add his combat modifier to the direct fire value of one unit in his own hex. 

THUS:
At the conclusion of his move into the hex--the leader is marked with a Moved/Fired Marker (Activated in VASSAL) (3.13 above)...
He may NOT ACTIVATE AGAIN (last phrase in 3.13) "Units marked with Moved/Fired markers may not activate again in the current turn"
6.42-Firepower Enhancement requires the leader to be activated (and I see the rules say with a FIRE Activation)--BUT as per 3.13---he is NOT activated
at this time---he is marked with a Moved/Fired marker...his MOVE activation is over, was over, when he moved into the hex and was marked.

So---
Leader is activated to MOVE, INF is activated to FIRE---at the beginning of the Activation Segment.
The Leader is moved one hex.....HE IS THEN MARKED WITH Moved/Fired Marker(Activated in Vassal).....
The INF wants to fire.....he was activated to Fire....but the LEADER is marked with marker already, and was previously activated to ONLY MOVE
---as he has completed his movement...thus he cannot do anything OTHER then what is allowed in 6.2 

Q.E.D. Winking
or so it would seem to me
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