What is this supposed to be?

[plloyd1010]

I started my South Korean OOB list and came across this.

Apparently some part if the PG-verse thinks it is an APC. The back of the counter has a truck. The only M20 that I know of is the utility scout car, which the South Koreans got about 100 of. Of the 3 scenarios the counter appears in, only one might have an APC use. The other 2 clearly have another purpose, perhaps for scouting, like it was used for.

So what is it?

[treadasaurusrex]

I classify it as a Ford-built, M20 armored utility car platoon. The printed unit designation type  is incorrect. It should be armored cavalry, and not a transport unit. It's an open-topped, armored car.

It is illustrated & described in (Berndt, Thomas 1995: 169).

You're right, it's definitely not an APC.

[triangular_cube]

Does the scenario book identify it as an APC for game purposes as the counter does? Regardless of what it ACTUALLY is, I would follow those directions as to how to play it. 

My copies are at the bottom of a stack in the closet so I'd have to dig to check it. 

[plloyd1010]

Does the scenario book identify it as an APC for game purposes as the counter does?

The scenario book does call it an APC. In parallel to Felipe's point, the M20 is an M8 with the turret removed and the crew compartment roof mostly removed. The vehicle normally has a crew of 4, certainly not room for a squad of troops. As a side note, whom ever entered the library entry, though it has mechanized movement.
 

Regardless of what it ACTUALLY is, I would follow those directions as to how to play it. 

Now the question of simulation vs. game play comes in. If the game M20 is a misnomer for some actual APC, the question remains, what is it really? I don't know of any wheeled APC in the U.S. inventory at this time that it could be. The M20, elsewhere in the PG-verse is a scout car, in reality it was a scout car. Does this mean we are playing with a made-up vehicle for game purposes?

[JayTownsend]

Both the M8 & M20 should be classified as Armored Cars:

The M20 was a derivative of the M8 Greyhound series. The chief difference between the two armored cars was the absence of a turret which allowed the M20 to feature benches and specialized radio equipment for use as an artillery spotter, reconnaissance vehicle, or personnel carrier.

[treadasaurusrex]

Does the scenario book identify it as an APC for game purposes as the counter does?

The scenario book does call it an APC. In parallel to Felipe's point, the M20 is an M8 with the turret removed and the crew compartment roof mostly removed. The vehicle normally has a crew of 4, certainly not room for a squad of troops. As a side note, whom ever entered the library entry, though it has mechanized movement.
 

Regardless of what it ACTUALLY is, I would follow those directions as to how to play it. 

Now the question of simulation vs. game play comes in. If the game M20 is a misnomer for some actual APC, the question remains, what is it really? I don't know of any wheeled APC in the U.S. inventory at this time that it could be. The M20, elsewhere in the PG-verse is a scout car, in reality it was a scout car. Does this mean we are playing with a made-up vehicle for game purposes?

Six wheels = motorized, not mechanized, que no?

[triangular_cube]

Does the scenario book identify it as an APC for game purposes as the counter does?

The scenario book does call it an APC. In parallel to Felipe's point, the M20 is an M8 with the turret removed and the crew compartment roof mostly removed. The vehicle normally has a crew of 4, certainly not room for a squad of troops. As a side note, whom ever entered the library entry, though it has mechanized movement.
 

Regardless of what it ACTUALLY is, I would follow those directions as to how to play it. 

Now the question of simulation vs. game play comes in. If the game M20 is a misnomer for some actual APC, the question remains, what is it really? I don't know of any wheeled APC in the U.S. inventory at this time that it could be. The M20, elsewhere in the PG-verse is a scout car, in reality it was a scout car. Does this mean we are playing with a made-up vehicle for game purposes?

Six wheels = motorized, not mechanized, que no?

I would think so.

[plloyd1010]

I've pointed out that I understand what an actual M20 is, or was. My inclination is to change the library entry for the South Korean counter to reflect the actual vehicle. I would also create a couple replacement counters and link them in the notes.

My rational goes like this: Sherman counters have already been changed with the advent of Black Panthers and the statement from APL that all Shermans should have an armor of 4. Thus changing the game after the fact. In 2 of the 3 scenarios in which the ROK M20 appears, there is already adequate transport in trucks or half-tracks, the "M20 APC" is out of place as the transport method or superfluous. The third scenario is all foot on the ROC side, apart from the M20. So an APC would provide limited high-speed mobility, but that isn't what the scenario is about. So the "M20 APC" isn't functionally redundant, but rather incongruous, as it is just another gun platform.

[triangular_cube]

I've pointed out that I understand what an actual M20 is, or was. My inclination is to change the library entry for the South Korean counter to reflect the actual vehicle. I would also create a couple replacement counters and link them in the notes.

My rational goes like this: Sherman counters have already been changed with the advent of Black Panthers and the statement from APL that all Shermans should have an armor of 4. Thus changing the game after the fact. In 2 of the 3 scenarios in which the ROK M20 appears, there is already adequate transport in trucks or half-tracks, the "M20 APC" is out of place as the transport method or superfluous. The third scenario is all foot on the ROC side, apart from the M20. So an APC would provide limited high-speed mobility, but that isn't what the scenario is about. So the "M20 APC" isn't functionally redundant, but rather incongruous, as it is just another gun platform.

My strange mentality of out of the box purity aside....

Are you going to add a second step to the unit? Seeing as you are treating it as an armored car and not an APC as it is presented on the counter?

[plloyd1010]

My strange mentality of out of the box purity aside....

Are you going to add a second step to the unit? Seeing as you are treating it as an armored car and not an APC as it is presented on the counter?

Compared to the Sherman change? Or compared to the M20's in Cassino, Invasion of Germany and West Wall? The short answer is that APL messed up and created an APC that they don't really use. And yes, it will get a 2nd step with a 3-5 DF.