[split from DIY Counters] zovs - "What to start with in PG?"

[zovs]

Forum Admin's Note - the DIY thread derailed into a discussion of how best to start playing PG. Not wanting to see a valuable topic lost at the tail end of an unrelated thread, I've split it off into its own thread. This is neither the 1980's nor CSW, we can and should categorize discussions freely.

Okay, so this is from APL web site, the Print and Play that they list here are not die cut counters or are they?

Print and Play (AP)

And this one does not list counters but is a print edition?

What is this?

Also, would it be worth the $35 to become a Gold Member?

[Shad]

Okay, so this is from APL web site, the Print and Play that they list here are not die cut counters or are they?

Print and Play (AP)

And this one does not list counters but is a print edition?

What is this?

Also, would it be worth the $35 to become a Gold Member?

If it has (download) after it then you're just getting a PDF. It's up to you to make that into a real boy, err, real game.

Re:2nd link, print edition means you'll get it on paper, probably one of those plastic toothed bindings but I don't own a copy so can't verify. There are no counters for Army Group South Ukraine as PG-HQ's Library makes clear.

To me Gold Club Membership appears to be (I phrase thus because I have never enrolled) a shameless scam to take advantage of people with too much disposable income, but there are members among us who seem to enjoy it. I look forward to their passionate defenses.

[tlangston28]

Okay, so this is from APL web site, the Print and Play that they list here are not die cut counters or are they?

Print and Play (AP)

And this one does not list counters but is a print edition?

What is this?

Also, would it be worth the $35 to become a Gold Member?

If it has (download) after it then you're just getting a PDF. It's up to you to make that into a real boy, err, real game.

Re:2nd link, print edition means you'll get it on paper, probably one of those plastic toothed bindings but I don't own a copy so can't verify. There are no counters for Army Group South Ukraine as PG-HQ's Library makes clear.

To me Gold Club Membership appears to be (I phrase thus because I have never enrolled) a shameless scam to take advantage of people with too much disposable income, but there are members among us who seem to enjoy it. I look forward to their passionate defenses.

I had joined the Gold Club last year and did get some fairly decent discounts off of games, especially those sales that were on top of discounts sent out in the mailers. I also got some free downloads of DIY counters (Marshal's Fist, etc), however, I never got the 64 page annual and now that APL has stated that sales will be far less frequent, I don't know if I will re-enroll. However, they will send one of three games for free for enrolling (Alsace 45, Gazala 42, or Red Vengeance) so does that make it worth the price?

[vince hughes]

Okay, so this is from APL web site, the Print and Play that they list here are not die cut counters or are they?

Print and Play (AP)

And this one does not list counters but is a print edition?

What is this?

Also, would it be worth the $35 to become a Gold Member?

With your preference, or at least enjoyment of VASSAL and obvious love of ASL AND being very new in the extreme to PG, I would say DO NOT sign up for Gold Club......... Yet !

You will find being an ex ASL / SL player that you will try to compare the games. This may break or make it for you. The games are different despite some minor leadership similarities. If you end up struggling to get ASL out of your mind and keep thinking the game is trying to portray squad action, you will likely not stay with PG. You have to remember they are entirely different creatures.

If on the other hand, you see through what you already know ASL wise, and realise that platoon warfare is a little more abstract (due to unit size) and ALSO see the very subtle nuances of the system (that some people don't find for some time and then suddenly post a eureka moment on one of the forum boards), then you will end up enjoying the game and want more. If that occurs and you get that "I need to get the whole set" itch ...... Then sign up for Gold Club membership

As an aside, I have most sets, but as a Johnny Foreigner GC is faaaaarr to expensive and I doubt I would ever buy enough games in the year to justify it.

[zovs]

Thanks guys for the further clarifications on PnP and Digital Download.

One thing that I'd like to point out is that I have always been a 'war gamer' and I started out with the old classics such as Afrika Korps, D-Day, The Bulge and then moved on to The Russian Campaign and PanzerBlitz/PanzerLeader before getting into SL/ASL.

I'll never give up ASL, besides investing 26 years and countless $$$$$ into it I simply love the social aspect of the ASL community (mostly face to face but also VASSAL).

With all that said (despite what I may or may not have said/posted on say CSW or GS) I do have an open mind and like I posted elsewhere I have darn near 500 games on my shelves, but like everyone else with concerns to family or money at one time or another I had to decide on which games to actually play, stay with and just quit collecting.

For example, I used to have 2-4 year subscriptions to S&T and I used to try to buy every war game I saw, but those days are over. I will pick up just about any and everything ASL related and part of the appeal to me in PG are two fold.

Fold one is the platoon level game itself, I think I can get my son up and into PanzerBltiz really quick, but to make it work I'd have to buy a rotary cutter, mat boards and print out those 17 maps from the IS web site, which since this is a hobby I might do I have been contemplating making my own counters for years. I took my OCS rule books (or rather the newer versions for DAK2, I have DAK) and charts and got them printed and bound in spiral books for 45 bucks as well as making new (extra sized 11x17) charts for the system and having them laminated, yeah its the price of a ASL module or even a smaller to mid sized game but it's nice to have.

Fold two is I like what I have read so far in the PG version 3 rules (only on page 2 though, lol) but I do still have and have played Pazner 44, Deset War, Kampfpanzer, Mech 77 (all from SPI) and Assault (GDW). I have enjoyed these to one extent or another, but I had to play all of them solo, now that my 16 year is a ASL hopping mad fellow, I have been thinking about introducing him to other systems (now more so since mom has flown the coop and it's just me and the boys).

Anyway I have rambled on a bit, but I hope this sort of explains where I am at in all this.

So far I find it a little odd that I have heard at least 2 PG fellows mention or allude to my ASL heritage being an obstacle, I don't know if that steams from some of the personalities on either CSW or GS or from personal experience, but I do understand it, since a lot of ASL players only exclusively play ASL. However, I know of several (myself included) that either player or own other systems and in some cases its an extream.

For example I really do love and dig Napoleonic for some reason and I do enjoy playing other non-complex games for fun, such as D-Day, Europa (Fire in the East), War in the East, or Russian Front just to get a break from some things like "Okay I am going to DFF at your AFV, first I'll pivot my RST turret 3 hexes fire, buttoned up at a moving small target, through a blaze with a 8-1 armor leader that is under little stun at that Pz IIA that spent 2.5 MP in my LOS, oh there is brush in between us as well" that is a pretty simple DRM (+10 if under 7 hexes, so 2 to hit) but when some one says "can I CC RF that T-34 as it's in bypass with my half squad and wounded 8-1 leader, there is SMOKE in my hex and the T-34 wants to turn it's turrent, how does the VCA and TCA play into this?" I have to stop for a second and figure it out.

I hope you get the humor in this, my open mindedness and yes my still beating heart of love for ASL and looking for a mistress type of thing all rolled into one...

[plloyd1010]

Also, would it be worth the $35 to become a Gold Member?

That would depend entirely on how much stuff you expect to by before the end of 2013. Considering most of the free stuff isn't going to be useful to any one person, would say the break even point is $150-200 in base orders. That basically means that if intend to buy 2 big games, or 3 full but less expensive games, the gold club is probably good for you, otherwise no.

[vince hughes]

Zovs,

The reason I mention your ASL background is because I was a SL guy and there are some rules within PG you need to read carefully in order not to fall into using SL / ASL rules whilst playing PG. I and I am sure some others have begun to read a rule in our early PG days and have perhaps assumed what it is 'going' to say rather than what it did say.

A very simple example is the Recovery of units (Rally). After adding the leader's modifier to the platoon's morale, they have to roll 1 LESS than that number to effect a stage of recovery. However, on morale checks when under fire etc, the unit will need to roll the SAME or less to pass.

This was an error I made with my first play.

That all said, my main opponent and I still have the vocab as a very interchangeable mistress when playing: Such as Flee v Rout or Recover v Rally, so some habits never completely disappear. :-)

[Shad]

Fold two is I like what I have read so far in the PG version 3 rules (only on page 2 though, lol)

I strongly encourage you to just grab our Annotated Rules PDF and be done with it. It's a unification of the 3rd edition rules and six years worth of clarifications and errata.

In my mind it's the most under-appreciated aspect of PG-HQ, a real treasure.

[zovs]

Shad,

Yeah I just found that PDF, thanks its looks excellent.

I'll print this off as well.

Vince,

I get what your saying, switching between games has never been that much of an issue to me, of course we are talking about tactical games, but to me the bigger mix up would be in comparing PB/PL to PG or the old SPI series, but I do get what your meaning as far as ASL vs. PG rules mix goes.

I so think that VASSAL would work wonders for this system, you don't know how many fellows I got started on VASL using either basic ASL SK scenarios or the famous Guards Counterattack for ASL on VASL with or with out Skype.

I saw that they had a SunTzu module but VASSAL is really the way to go if you go cardboard to electronics.

Anyway I'll grab the Advanced Rules here and print them up. Payday is looming and my next diliema and question to you all is:

Should I get:

1. Eastern Front Deluxe (42.00)
2. Eastern Front Deluxe (42.00) and Berlin (42.00)
3. Both Afrika Korps & Desert Rats (both 39.00 or 80.00 total at AP on sale)
4. The Battle of the Bulge (39.00 on sale at AP).
5. Both 2 and 3 (I'd love to do this but think its too much $$$ for now).

I am leaning towards number 2 and picking up a few of the $5-20 scenario add on's and Blue Division thing that is on sale this weekend.

I think this payday my max spending on AP stuff would be about 80 or so to start with.

Thoughts?

[Shad]

I wouldn't double-down on the desert right out of the gate. How about EFD and Bulge? Then you get some variable terrain and a nicer mix than early+late war East Front...?