Early War Pz-IVs (et al)

[rules_heretic]

The early war Pz-IVs were armed with short barrel 75mm guns.  In the various games they have been rated as 4-4.  I felt this rating assumed use of HEAT.  However, a lot of the use of these is before the availability of HEAT (which ASL says is May 1942).

The AP round for these guns (again per ASL) is actually decent.  I have given these (and the other 75 short armed) vehicles a rating of 2-4 before HEAT was available.
The AP round for these guns (again per ASL) is actually decent.  I have given these (and the other 75 short armed) vehicles a rating of 3-4 before HEAT was available.

[plloyd1010]

I'm pretty sure it is the PzGr. 39. German after action reports from the French campaign note how only the PzKw IV was effective against the heavier French tanks, such as the S35 and Char 1bis. So I am pretty sure that 4-4 is the solid shot.

[rules_heretic]

Interesting!  I'll have to reconsider then!  Sounds like ASL may undervalue it.

[rules_heretic]

I did some more analysis on this.

First let's consider a few units:
Semovente (armed with 75/18):  This has rating of 4-x
Grant (with 75 and turret mounted 37):  Rating of 4-x
French 75:  3-4

Does the Semovente really deserve the same gun quality as the Mark IVs?  This is my first reason to believe that the 4-x number represents HEAT.  My understanding is that the French 75 was one of the best early war antitank pieces.  But yet, we're saying the short barrel 75 is more effective (the 75/18!)?  And that these Mark IVs are the equal of the Grant which for its time was a really great tank.  (Play Tobruk!)

I think the 4-x rating for the Grant is representative of having 2 capable weapons, and not just an evaluation of the 75.  If the French 75 should be 3-x then a turretless Grant would be a 3-x in my book.

Based on Peter's comment about the effectiveness of the 75 short which I hadn't heard, and which ASL certainly undersells, I could see raising the value of these vehicles to 3-4, but not 4-4.  Unless there is evidence otherwise, I am inclined to keep the Semovente as 2-x.


Thanks for reading!  Just my two cents worth!

[triangular_cube]

The AT value of 4 was originally for HEAT rounds (well, it was originally 4-7 but this got downgraded to 4-4 very early on). One could dig through the piles of CSW posts from the early 2000's if they really want to track the debate, but a bit of trawling through webarchive was interesting.

The original daily content on the PZIV included the following:

" Even with the short 75mm L24 cannon, the PzKw IV could destroy enemy tanks using hollow-charge rounds. These became available in the summer of 1941 in both Russia and North Africa. As almost all Panzer Grenadier scenarios issued to date that include PzKw IV tanks take place after this superior anti-tank ammunition became available, the PzKw IVE has a misleadingly high anti-tank value of 4, reflecting use of this round. Future games based on the Polish, French and Balkan campaigns of 1939 through 1941 will show the tank with a much lower anti-tank value."

You can see it here https://web.archive.org/web/200812292207...PzKwIV.php

Funnily enough the new daily content article that replaces the original trims that down to:

" Even with the short 75mm L24 cannon, the PzKw IV could destroy enemy tanks using hollow-charge rounds. These became available in the summer of 1941 in both Russia and North Africa."

http://www.avalanchepress.com/PzKwIV.php

Intentional change? Embarassing oversight noticed when republishing the article?

Couldnt tell you.

[rules_heretic]

Nice finds!  Interesting about the ammunition availability date!  That is a year before what I think ASL says. 

So then, what's a good value for the pre-HEAT version?  Based on Peter's information I think 3-4 would be ok.  Otherwise it is undifferentiated from the 37mm ATG.


(I'll have to dig out my Tobruk game and see how the AP for the Pz-IV compares to that of the Semovente.  I don't think the HEAT round is available in the game IIRC.)

[rules_heretic]

WOW!!!!  Plot twist!!!

In my original version of Tobruk the Italian 75/18 is well superior to "75 short".

(I wonder what the revised BRL-xxx game says.  I almost want to buy it for nostalgia but over one hundred for it is kind of a show stopper.)

[plloyd1010]

You may find Oberst Kuehn's report interesting. He was commander of the 3rd Panzer Brigade during Fall Gelb.

[triangular_cube]

I certainly can't say with authority what the values SHOULD be. Ya'll know a lot more about that than I do. 

My expertise seems to lie in remembering what someone posted once on the internet 20 years ago for some reason. 

[cjsiam]

We have to remember...
we're talking about 4 tanks---over a period of 15 min....that's a lot of time to shoot scoot shoot scoot tank by tank
Impacted by training, equipment reliability, morale and doctrine....
rate of fire, accuracy, ammunition, turret arrangement and power...
vs. an opponents doctrine.....

So gun on gun don't entirely take up the "value" or strength I think....

I'm good where they are.....