4th Edition DF chart - Opportunity Fire question

[tlangston28]

Hi all,

I have been playing PG for about 8 years now (3rd and 4th edition) and came across a question on Opportunity fire that i never thought of (or noticed for that matter) after looking at the chart.  Namely,  if you look at the 4th edition charts, the +1 for opportunity fire on the DF chart indicates +1 Opportunity Fire (13.0) vs. personnel unit.   Looking at the definitions section in the rules (1.2),  there are examples of Personnel units and it states Anti-Tank Rifle units but not AT guns, etc.

The situation we came across was that a German 37mm AT gun on a wagon with a LT was moving and fired on by INF units.   At the time, we couldn't determine the rule so we allowed the +1 for the opportunity fire (as well as the +1 for the target is an AT gun, etc) - didn't change the overall result but looking at it now, I don't think we should have applied that +1. 

Thinking back, we may have applied this modifier in a few games that may have changed a result...

[Schoenwulf]

I'm thinking probably no +1 for Artillery on the assumption that the bonus on artillery assumes they are static and cannot take as much cover as other units. When towed, opp fire is similar to that on other moving units, so +1 on that only.

[cjsiam]

Troubled by the imprecision of the words.....though agree in concept...

+1Opportunity fire against personnel is pretty clear....

But a unit being transported---by wagon, by truck---is that a personnel unit? -- by definitions it is not....So no + 1 modifier....
...it's clearly moving in open (words from another place and time...) So you can DO Opportunity fire AGAINST a wagon transporting an Gun---but, no +1 for Opp vs. Personnel.

I'd agree the +1 vs. AT (or +2 vs Art) applies when you are deployed to fire, i.e., unlimbered only...

SO---Can anyone make a defense of there being ANY COLUMN SHIFT AT ALL? to the DF? ... no +1Opp vs. Personnel, no+1 as AT....  It's moving so you can Opp fire,
But I would put forth you get NO MODIFIER.....

How am I wrong? quote a paragraph...

[plloyd1010]

I'm thinking probably no +1 for Artillery on the assumption that the bonus on artillery assumes they are static and cannot take as much cover as other units. When towed, opp fire is similar to that on other moving units, so +1 on that only.

That is sort of my thinking. Personnel units are likely crouching or in minimal cover when stationary (in the absence of anything substantial). When moving they lose that small advantage. Gun crews and ammo handlers are somewhat more upright in their jobs, thus their exposure would change less. Some of that is obviously rationalizing, but it works.

[tlangston28]

So if I am reading the responses correctly, these would be the modifiers for different circumstances for Direct Fire Opportunity Fire:

• Op Fire (OF) vs. Standard personnel:  +1
  
• OF vs. AT, AA, Mortar, Cav, etc:  +1 for target being an AT, AA etc unit only (do not apply above).  Also,  I don't think that deployed or limbered should matter:  The reason being that a deployed unit isn't moving so it is not considered opportunity fire and the target is still an AT or AA unit so the +1 should apply in either case.
  
• Same for Artillery = +2 for either OF or regular DF but do not apply additional +1 from 1st bullet point.
  
• No OF +1 modifier for AFV or APC units. (I assume this would include Self-propelled artillery with an armor factor since by definition, it would be considered and AFV unit and so would not fall under the second bullet?
  

Now that the discussion has started,  I guess the question is do Trucks and/or wagons (whether loaded or not) suffer the +1 Op Fire since they are not technically personnel units but Transport units?  Again this is  only direct fire OF as there is a specific modifier for Bombardment on loaded transports.  I think we have always applied it but now i don't think it should apply when following the letter of the rule.

[plloyd1010]

That would be correct. Vehicles do not have +1 for Opfire against them. There is a -1 Op AT fire against them (thus harder to hit with AT guns).

[cjsiam]

So if I am reading the responses correctly, these would be the modifiers for different circumstances for Direct Fire Opportunity Fire:

• Op Fire (OF) vs. Standard personnel:  +1
  
• OF vs. AT, AA, Mortar, Cav, etc:  +1 for target being an AT, AA etc unit only (do not apply above).  Also,  I don't think that deployed or limbered should matter:  The reason being that a deployed unit isn't moving so it is not considered opportunity fire and the target is still an AT or AA unit so the +1 should apply in either case.
  
• Same for Artillery = +2 for either OF or regular DF but do not apply additional +1 from 1st bullet point.
  
• No OF +1 modifier for AFV or APC units. (I assume this would include Self-propelled artillery with an armor factor since by definition, it would be considered and AFV unit and so would not fall under the second bullet?
  

Now that the discussion has started,  I guess the question is do Trucks and/or wagons (whether loaded or not) suffer the +1 Op Fire since they are not technically personnel units but Transport units?  Again this is  only direct fire OF as there is a specific modifier for Bombardment on loaded transports.  I think we have always applied it but now i don't think it should apply when following the letter of the rule.

I'm thinking this may not be right guys!....and this is not something I went deep before but----I think once a unit becomes "transported" you don't consider it AT/Arty...it's transport
that is fired at, not the unit transported....(AT/Arty)...

5.65 Taking DamageIf a transport unit is fired on, everything it is transporting suffers the same fate as the transport. If a transport must make a morale check due to enemy fire, make one roll for the transport only, adding the morale bonus of any one leader it is carrying or in its hex or an adjacent hex. If the transport becomes disrupted or demoralized or is eliminated, so does everything it's transporting.

So---there is no modifier +1/+2 for DF used in Op fire on AT/Art(respectively) shot at while limbered and being transported.....you get to fire on the transport...no OP +1, just a base
roll on the transport....

So while you CAN OP, you get no modifers to "moving in open as personnel" or "type of target--it's transport"

Show me where I'm wrong....

[tlangston28]

So if I am reading the responses correctly, these would be the modifiers for different circumstances for Direct Fire Opportunity Fire:

• Op Fire (OF) vs. Standard personnel:  +1
  
• OF vs. AT, AA, Mortar, Cav, etc:  +1 for target being an AT, AA etc unit only (do not apply above).  Also,  I don't think that deployed or limbered should matter:  The reason being that a deployed unit isn't moving so it is not considered opportunity fire and the target is still an AT or AA unit so the +1 should apply in either case.
  
• Same for Artillery = +2 for either OF or regular DF but do not apply additional +1 from 1st bullet point.
  
• No OF +1 modifier for AFV or APC units. (I assume this would include Self-propelled artillery with an armor factor since by definition, it would be considered and AFV unit and so would not fall under the second bullet?
  

Now that the discussion has started,  I guess the question is do Trucks and/or wagons (whether loaded or not) suffer the +1 Op Fire since they are not technically personnel units but Transport units?  Again this is  only direct fire OF as there is a specific modifier for Bombardment on loaded transports.  I think we have always applied it but now i don't think it should apply when following the letter of the rule.

I'm thinking this may not be right guys!....and this is not something I went deep before but----I think once a unit becomes "transported" you don't consider it AT/Arty...it's transport
that is fired at, not the unit transported....(AT/Arty)...

5.65 Taking DamageIf a transport unit is fired on, everything it is transporting suffers the same fate as the transport. If a transport must make a morale check due to enemy fire, make one roll for the transport only, adding the morale bonus of any one leader it is carrying or in its hex or an adjacent hex. If the transport becomes disrupted or demoralized or is eliminated, so does everything it's transporting.

So---there is no modifier +1/+2 for DF used in Op fire on AT/Art(respectively) shot at while limbered and being transported.....you get to fire on the transport...no OP +1, just a base
roll on the transport....

So while you CAN OP, you get no modifers to "moving in open as personnel" or "type of target--it's transport"

Show me where I'm wrong....

That's why I added the bit at the end about the Trucks,  I wasn't sure.  Reading that rule (5.65), the second and third bullet on my list would then only apply when the Guns (whether AT, AA or Arty) are unlimbered and bullet #4 would read "...AFVs, APCs or Transports...".

Actually,  the second bullet would only apply to Guns.   Mortars would suffer both +1 op fire AND +1 target is Mortar since they are classified as a personnel unit.  

Going with this thought then,  If a Gun is being dragged by an INF unit (allowable in some module rules) then there should be a total of +1 modifier since the Op fire would apply to the INF unit, and the +1 target is a Gun would apply to the dragged gun.  E.g.  an INF unit drags a 2-pdr one hex and is fired on with DF values totaling 11 from 2 hexes away.  The final column would be 16 for both  (11 +1 column Opfire on INF,  11 +1 column target is an AT gun for the 2-pdr), not 16 for the INF and 22 for the AT Gun.

Agreed?

[cjsiam]

So if I am reading the responses correctly, these would be the modifiers for different circumstances for Direct Fire Opportunity Fire:

• Op Fire (OF) vs. Standard personnel:  +1
  
• OF vs. AT, AA, Mortar, Cav, etc:  +1 for target being an AT, AA etc unit only (do not apply above).  Also,  I don't think that deployed or limbered should matter:  The reason being that a deployed unit isn't moving so it is not considered opportunity fire and the target is still an AT or AA unit so the +1 should apply in either case.
  
• Same for Artillery = +2 for either OF or regular DF but do not apply additional +1 from 1st bullet point.
  
• No OF +1 modifier for AFV or APC units. (I assume this would include Self-propelled artillery with an armor factor since by definition, it would be considered and AFV unit and so would not fall under the second bullet?
  

Now that the discussion has started,  I guess the question is do Trucks and/or wagons (whether loaded or not) suffer the +1 Op Fire since they are not technically personnel units but Transport units?  Again this is  only direct fire OF as there is a specific modifier for Bombardment on loaded transports.  I think we have always applied it but now i don't think it should apply when following the letter of the rule.

I'm thinking this may not be right guys!....and this is not something I went deep before but----I think once a unit becomes "transported" you don't consider it AT/Arty...it's transport
that is fired at, not the unit transported....(AT/Arty)...

5.65 Taking DamageIf a transport unit is fired on, everything it is transporting suffers the same fate as the transport. If a transport must make a morale check due to enemy fire, make one roll for the transport only, adding the morale bonus of any one leader it is carrying or in its hex or an adjacent hex. If the transport becomes disrupted or demoralized or is eliminated, so does everything it's transporting.

So---there is no modifier +1/+2 for DF used in Op fire on AT/Art(respectively) shot at while limbered and being transported.....you get to fire on the transport...no OP +1, just a base
roll on the transport....

So while you CAN OP, you get no modifers to "moving in open as personnel" or "type of target--it's transport"

Show me where I'm wrong....

That's why I added the bit at the end about the Trucks,  I wasn't sure.  Reading that rule (5.65), the second and third bullet on my list would then only apply when the Guns (whether AT, AA or Arty) are unlimbered and bullet #4 would read "...AFVs, APCs or Transports...".

Actually,  the second bullet would only apply to Guns.   Mortars would suffer both +1 op fire AND +1 target is Mortar since they are classified as a personnel unit.  

Going with this thought then,  If a Gun is being dragged by an INF unit (allowable in some module rules) then there should be a total of +1 modifier since the Op fire would apply to the INF unit, and the +1 target is a Gun would apply to the dragged gun.  E.g.  an INF unit drags a 2-pdr one hex and is fired on with DF values totaling 11 from 2 hexes away.  The final column would be 16 for both  (11 +1 column Opfire on INF,  11 +1 column target is an AT gun for the 2-pdr), not 16 for the INF and 22 for the AT Gun.

Agreed?

I think an INF unit dragging the gun would get the +1 OP personnel, and the gun would get the +1 Gun....I don't think you'd compound them though...So for the INF I agree 100%
The Gun---does what happens to the INF resolve the gun (Like it was being transported---impact on transport impacts the transported unit)? I kinda think it might....
The Gun is effectively in Transport.....by the INF (personnel unit).....

So---I wonder if you treat it like the Gun was in a truck (only the truck here is an INF Personnel unit subject to all it's troubles...) and then only roll against the INF?

For mortars moving 1---they get both problems...Moving personnel +1 and Mortar +1....agreed

So other then INF dragging---I think we're good.....
Question is---how is a Mortar moving getting +2 different from a 37mm AT gun platoon being dragged by an INF unit?....getting only +1? and the impact on INF affecting
the dragged gun?.....The equivalency of truck transporting (and impacts on truck affecting) vs. INF transporting (and only impacts on INF affecting--no separate roll for gun) -- IS
that a false analogy?

questions, questions.....

[Schoenwulf]

Had occasion to pause today as I read this thread again. In Section 1.2 of the 4th Edition Rules, the definition of "Armor Value" states that "Motorized vehicles without a printed armor value have an armor value of -1 (usually trucks and jeeps)". So, technically, this indicates that trucks have an armor value, albeit -1. The Direct Fire Table, 4th Ed., indicates that an "M" check refers to "All units without armor values in target hex check morale (14.1)". So, if the definition of an armor value is in play, trucks would not check morale unless an "X" were rolled, in which case "All other units in hex must make an M2 morale check". Is one correct in assuming that DF will only affect a loaded truck if an "X" result is rolled? Or do players just use the  DF table as though the truck did not have any armor value for protection?