Panzer Lehr and laser cut counters.

[Poor Yorek]

The entire row of Pz-IV F2 and Panther counters has the DF and AT values cut on the bottom and the AT yellow background certainly crosses over into the counter below it (the Pz-IV's into the Panthers, for example). I suppose AWDougherty can comment on what they look like when punched out.

Whilst one might not expect "perfection," - whatever that might mean - I submit that when one pays well-earned money for a product, that product should be held to professional standards: here, that means the artwork for the counters which, after all, along with the maps & scenarios constitute the essence of the game. Can one "make out" the values? Sure. But I'm suggesting that one should not be paying for a sloppy product and, especially, work that should never have passed a quality control check. If, as J6A suggests, this example is a singular printing (i.e. its not common to every printing of that particular sheet), then I believe that AWD should ask for and expect to get a replacement set from APL.

[larry marak]

I'd write Mike, point out that problem with (fortunately) the 14 unit countersheet, and ask for a replacement to mailed your way.

[awdougherty]

The entire row of Pz-IV F2 and Panther counters has the DF and AT values cut on the bottom and the AT yellow background certainly crosses over into the counter below it (the Pz-IV's into the Panthers, for example). I suppose AWDougherty can comment on what they look like when punched out.

Whilst one might not expect "perfection," - whatever that might mean - I submit that when one pays well-earned money for a product, that product should be held to professional standards: here, that means the artwork for the counters which, after all, along with the maps & scenarios constitute the essence of the game. Can one "make out" the values? Sure. But I'm suggesting that one should not be paying for a sloppy product and, especially, work that should never have passed a quality control check. If, as J6A suggests, this example is a singular printing (i.e. its not common to every printing of that particular sheet), then I believe that AWD should ask for and expect to get a replacement set from APL.

Yeah, this phrases my thoughts well. I feel that a professional standard in this case requires properly printed counters. I will be contacting AP to see if they will work with me about replacing the misaligned set, and AP is definitely not alone here. I've seen similar things from a number of other companies and as long as they do what they can to fix the mistake, I don't worry about it.

The burn marks will be a problem for me personally, however, and I'm not sure what can be done about that. I'll see if I have some time to punch and clip the counters tonight, maybe get another picture of them so people can compare. To me, scorch marks constitute damage, and I'm left to wonder if other companies who laser cut have the same issue. I think Worthington Games just went with a laser cutter, I thought I saw a video of it in action. I'd be curious to know how those counters turned out.

If the scorch marks are something that has to be accepted, then I have enough Panzer Grenadier, Second World War at Sea, and other non-AP wargames to last me three lifetimes, so Kursk will be my final PG (and possibly AP if this plagues all of their products) purchase.

edit: Here's the link to the Worthington Games laser cut video, doesn't look like they show the back.

Edit 2: sent an email to AP customer support. We'll see what happens.

[J6A]

I've heard the feel been called like wood, at least with Victory Point Games new laser counters (which are thicker than AP's). PL and K:SF have arrived in Las Vegas. However, I grabbed them from the mailbox right before heading to see a client, and while I was able to look at PL at a stoplight, K:SF remains unopened (for now). My PL counters are very well centered, so no issues there. Scorching is about the same as the ones shown above, with the exception of one of the armor units on the small sheet where its much more noticeable in one corner. I have no idea why, and it certainly won't affect play.

I'm actually in the same boat as Vince. I think the scorch marks add a weather-worn/battle hardened look to the counters.

[J6A]

BTW, I think asking for a replacement for the small sheet is a perfectly reasonable request. As for avoiding scorch marks, its just not going to happen with the current state of laser technology. I mean, its burning through the counter sheet material. The scorch marks seem to be where the laser changes directions, maybe its there a millisecond longer and that causes scorches. As for other games, Dr. Mike has said that he hadn't planned to use laser cut counters for boxed games because of the price, so I have no idea if K:SF is the exception or the rule.

For me, the burn marks are no worse than corner nubs or flash on other counter sheets. I realize its a personal preference, and I guess because I knew they would be there, they don't bug me.

[awdougherty]

The main reason I ordered Panzer Lehr was to see how the laser cutting worked out, and I think laser cutting was specifically mentioned as part of the press material for it. I have no problems with that experiment not working out for me personally. With Kursk, however, I feel like it was a really late decision in the process without giving me the chance to see the results with Lehr.

I won't complain too much because it's AP's thing, they can steer the ship as they see fit. I personally would have preferred die-cut counters knowing what I do now with Lehr, and for 99% of the time I'd known about Kursk, that's what I expected.

For me, the scorch marks are worse that corner nubs only because I clip my counters, but again, I realize all of this is my personal preference. Anyway, I'm sure the game itself will be very solid, but I have my particularities concerning the aesthetics.

[Shad]

I am 100% with awdougherty and Poor Yorek on this one, those posted images were striking. Thank you for taking the trouble to give us real photos to look at, AWD.

The sheet is badly misaligned - there is a full 2mm of nothing at the top of each of his counters! I would request a replacement, though I would not expect it to arrive quickly...

Maybe a stupid question: can any of those marks be rubbed off? In other words, how much is soot and how much is actual damage to the material?

[larry marak]

The downloadable campaign map and counters for PG Lehr aren't up yet.

[campsawyer]

My PL look the same KSF is better but they still have the burnt smell. But this is adding a whole new dimension to the game. Smell effects. So when you destroy that tank you can pick it up and smell it burning.

As for rubbing of the marks, no deal they are permanent.

As for the campaign map, from a email to Mike B. it is going up as Daily Content sometime in the future.

[Hugmenot]

Victory Point Games also went to laser cut counters in the past couple of months. I remember an early post stating they were experiencing issues with burn marks and were experimenting with the laser setup to resolve the issue.