LOS and Dug-in and Entrenchments

[cjsiam]

So....thinking about defensive positions....

As I read the rules if I have entrenchments in front of a town hex....Which are empty---LOS/Direct Fire is not blocked for Infantry units in the town shooting through the hex.

Conversely---If I put an infantry unit in the entrenchment, then units in the town have their Direct Fire blocked by the presence of those units (in the trenches....)

And machine guns(in the town, behind the trenches) would be UNABLE to fire at any enemy infantry adjacent to the Entrenchment, 
due to their NOT being one empty hex in front of the obstructing friendly infantry....

Same applies to Dug In units.

The TEC does NOT qualify Dug-in or Entrenchment as Limiting Terrain either...where an Anti-Tank Ditch is "Limited Terrain" (is that like Limiting?)
So if I build a trench and occupy it, they can see me...but if I dig an Anti-Tank Ditch they cannot...

REEeeeeeeaaallly?
Do I have this right? 

stuck in a quandary ....cj

[cjsiam]

So 20+ people have read this question...

No one has replied?

Am I missing something obvious, is this not worthy of discussing? or is this shaking pillars of understanding and
common practice?

what?

Someone throw me a bone here....
cj

[plloyd1010]

Assuming player 1 is in the town, player 2 is in the entrenchments (and further out). Player 1 may fire out of the town at Player 2's units, LOS/LOF is not blocked. Player 2 may see into the town, but may not shoot into the town, except from the entrenchments. LOS is not blocked, LOF is.

My wondering is why player 1 put (apparently unoccupied entrenchments in front of the town.

[cjsiam]

Well, Peter thanks---that's one of the scenarios...

With an initial setup of an entrenchment in front of the town---it's certainly possible that the units in the 
entrenchment are driven off---and the defenders in then town must then contend with enemy in the trenches--
next to the town....a BAD situation for the defenders...

The situation I'm more concerned with is different.
In DEFENDING the town...If, as defender, I occupy trenches in front of town....LOF is impacted for
Units in the town firing over the entrenchment hex.
1) HMG units in the Town may fire---BUT ONLY if there is an empty hex between the unit in trenches and the enemy
2) INF in the Town MAY NOT FIRE EVER over the occupied trenches---(nor may they be fired at by INF--shooting over the trenches)

As well, the situation deteriorates for the defenders---if I have def units in the trenches, in front of the town, and an enemy unit/units become
adjacent to them--ready to assault---the HMG in the town MAY NO LONGER fire over the trenches at the attacking inf because there is no
empty hex in front of the entrenched defender....

Somehow, that makes me think that putting entrenchments in front of Towns to NOT be a good idea according to the game....
But, I'm not sure that holds up in reality....

THOUGHTS FOLKS?

Does ALLOWING INF fire over entrenched or dug-in friendly units alleviate this? 
Does it break other mechanics if done?
Does it better reflect impacts of entrenchment/dug in units?

cj

[plloyd1010]

The situation I'm more concerned with is different.
In DEFENDING the town...If, as defender, I occupy trenches in front of town....LOF is impacted for
Units in the town firing over the entrenchment hex.
1) HMG units in the Town may fire---BUT ONLY if there is an empty hex between the unit in trenches and the enemy
2) INF in the Town MAY NOT FIRE EVER over the occupied trenches---(nor may they be fired at by INF--shooting over the trenches)

cj

Point 1 is correct. So the HMG, AA gun or AFV would only be able to fire at a range of 3 hexes, out of the town. I would put the HMG in the entrenchment. Then a mortars or other artillery in the town.

The first part of 2 is correct. Second part is wrong, there is nothing that prevents firing through enemy units.

[cjsiam]

The situation I'm more concerned with is different.
In DEFENDING the town...If, as defender, I occupy trenches in front of town....LOF is impacted for
Units in the town firing over the entrenchment hex.
1) HMG units in the Town may fire---BUT ONLY if there is an empty hex between the unit in trenches and the enemy
2) INF in the Town MAY NOT FIRE EVER over the occupied trenches---(nor may they be fired at by INF--shooting over the trenches)

cj

Point 1 is correct. So the HMG, AA gun or AFV would only be able to fire at a range of 3 hexes, out of the town. I would put the HMG in the entrenchment. Then a mortars or other artillery in the town.

The first part of 2 is correct. Second part is wrong, there is nothing that prevents firing through enemy units.

So....If you want to defend a town....and you have ability to put up entrenchments.....
MG in town can only fire at 3 hexes or more .... can't bring them to bear on enemy units 2hexes (400yds) away over the tops of the units
   in the trenches....Nor can infantry in the town fire over the entrenched units....

If the MG are to be used to defend, they best be IN the trenches....and that would then mean one inf + inf ...commander behind ideally with modifier...in town hex.

hmm....seems clear....though I much prefer to have the machine guns in a 2nd story window...but, we don't do that in PG.....ok...

[plloyd1010]

Yup, that's the problem. I would have INF/HMG teams in the trenches, mortars/guns in the town with back-up INF. Of course, when you do that, your opponent is going to try to find a solution to that problem.

[Greyfox]

Currently on TDY and don’t have rules in hand. Isn’t the town considered on level higher than surrounding terrain; and based on that he should be able to engage enemy forces with troops from town as well as from the entrenchments IAW line of sight rules and, well, just common sense. Having entrenchments or fighting positions outside of an urban area is not an uncommon occurrence in war. His set-up and my interpretation of the rules would actually make the urban area a tough nut to crack.... however if the defender loses the entrenchments it would make a counterattack damn difficult.

[plloyd1010]

Rule 8.34 Town Hexes
. Nope and specifically nope.

[Greyfox]

Thanks.... I forgot the rules were online. Acording to that rule it is higher for LOS purposes only and not firing. Good to know. It has been a while (year’s) since I have played.