AT fire in an assault hex

[plloyd1010]

The question of when AT fire may occur in an assault hex came up in our last session. After discussing, parsing, and discussing again, we settled on these points:

• AT fire in assault hex requires the firing unit to activate. Partly because firing at armor entering an assault hex resembles OP fire (which is disallowed), and partly because allowing AT fire as part of assault combat results in double AT fire opportunities.
  
• AT fire in an assault hex does not initiate, or require, assault combat. Functionally it is a separate action in the hex, as would be rallying or digging in.
  
• None of this necessarily applies to the infantry anti tank rules as yet.
  

Anyone else play like this, or have an alternate interpretation?

[Hugmenot]

That's how I play it but it is less clear if that interpretation is correct under 4th edition rules than it was under 3rd edition rules.

There are definitely other interpretations. One I have seen is attacking and defending units in an assault can choose whether they conduct AT fire or contribute to the Assault Firepower total. In this interpretation, even attacking and defending tanks get two shots if they are efficient.

There was a time when I wanted to write the 4.1 rules with lots of examples of play. Writing the rules of Land Cruisers and River Fleets threw a cold shower on that project as I now know how many hours this project would take.

[JayTownsend]

I play that all assault fire combat happens simultaneously, so even if you fire one of your unit AT option, the armor unit that was fired at still applies their attack value to the assault unless it was a fire first situation.

[plloyd1010]

The parsing came in this sentence from 12.52, which begins:

They may conduct Anti-Tank Fire attacks ...

It never says it is in conjunction with, or part of, assault combat, merely that it can take place in the hex.
Then where was the question of how much AT shooting could actually take place. OP fire doesn't allow normal fire. Should firing defensively while assault combat is taking place allow normal fire when assault combat might be happening again? We decided no, it was just too much shooting for the gun.

[Hugmenot]

The problem is in the first sentence of 12.4, "Each player totals the Direct Fire values of all his units in the hex (that are not firing Anti-Tank Fire, 12.52)", a sentence that did not exist in 3rd edition.

I talked to John Stafford when he attended a local gaming convention in Richmond and his interpretation was different than mine.

[saracv3]

I think there's one more thing. In the free fire explanation 12.12, it is stated that a unit units can fire a free shot even after a Moved/Fired marker is placed on them. (My paraphrase.) So here, could we have an example of an AT shot that fits that sitrep?

I may be close to having it right now. I have 3 units, 2 demoralised FA1 & T37 , and a dispersed T26. There are currently 3 good order German INF. + leader. (There is also a Russian leader and a Commissar who failed.) Outside the Assault stack are German antitank guns which could enter the stack on the next turn. 2 INF. would be exchanged for the 2 AT guns.

Assuming the Soviet tanks remain, and probably some would, one might have the sitrep producing the AT Moved/Fired free shot,especially if all remaining Soviet tanks were demoralised.

Am I right?

[Hugmenot]

I am not sure if I understand your example so I will reword it. Please correct me if I misunderstood it.

The Germans have three good order in an assault hex and a reduced, good order Tiger II in an adjacent hex. The Soviets have a demoralized FA1, a demoralized T37, and a disrupted T26 in the hex. We'll assume none of these units have activated yet this turn. 

Case 1: The Soviets get the next activation and activate the all three units to recover. If the FA1 and T37 do not recover, they must exit the hex. The T26 remains in the hex and thus the Germans do not get a free shot at the FA1 and T37 as they exit the hex. All Soviet units are marked Moved/Fired.

Case 2: The Germans get the next activation and activates one INF unit which exits the hex. The Soviets activate something not in the hex. The Germans activate again and move the Tiger II  into the assault (it started adjacent) and have it and the two remaining INF units assault the Soviets on the Assault table (Note 1). I assume the only effect is the Soviet T26 is demoralized. All Germans units are marked Moved/Fire. The Soviet player activates all three in one activation units later in the turn (Note 2) and all three failed to recover and must exit the hex. The Germans get a free shot. The three German units may combine their Direct Fire value and have that attack affect the three exiting Soviet units.  Or, from the last sentence in 12.12, the German units may add the Direct Fire value of the two German INF unit to the Anti-Tank value of the Tiger II. The latter option is better for the Germans because the reduced AT value of the Tiger II tank is still 11, four higher than its reduced DF value of 7. Note the free shot is done on the Assault combat table regardless of the option chosen.

Note 1: This is my personal interpretation of 12.4 and it matches Peter's original post.
Note 2: It would be better for the Soviets to activate only two units (possibly the two he does not want to lose) and tried to rally them, The Germans would not get a free shot if they both failed their recovery attempt and had to leave the hex because the Soviet unit that was not activated remains in the hex.

[saracv3]

Er, well, I definitely did not make an example that was clear and concise. And I didn't understand that you and Peter were taking 12.4 and dissecting it. I simply saw Peter had made the statement that AT fire MUST ONLY occur from an activated unit in the Assault hex.

But if employing 12.12, AT fire may be employed again, after the unit(s) initialial
activation, after the Move/Fire marker was placed,after 12.4. In rewriting the rules, maybe the explanation of the free shot should come w or after 12.4.

Note that 12.11 also has an open statement. The 2nd to last sentence. It says a 7
Units which begin their activation in an assaulthex are not required to assault ... (and can) perform some other task." Hmm. Like digging in? This would produce a situation where AT wouldn't fire, but could fire under 12.12.

One thing you did teach me (other than how to write better), was that I couldn't move into and out of an Assault hex in the same activation.

[Hugmenot]

Er,  well, I definitely did not make an example that was clear and concise. And I didn't understand that you and Peter were taking 12.4 and dissecting it. I simply saw Peter had made the statement that AT fire MUST ONLY occur from an activated unit in the Assault hex.

But if employing 12.12, AT fire may be employed again, after the unit(s) initialial
activation, after the Move/Fire marker was placed,after 12.4. In rewriting the rules, maybe the explanation of the free shot should come w or after 12.4.

Note that 12.11 also has an open statement. The 2nd to last sentence. It says a 7
Units which begin their activation in an assaulthex are not required to assault ... (and can) perform some other task." Hmm. Like digging in? This would produce a situation where AT wouldn't fire, but could fire under 12.12.

One thing you did teach me (other than how to write better), was that I couldn't move into and out of an Assault hex in the same activation.

You can move into and out of an Assault hex in the same activation but only if specific conditions are met.

If there is good order leader in the assault hex and a good order unit he can activate in an adjacent hex. Example: The Germans have a good order leader, a good order HMG and a disrupted Pz IVH in the Assault hex , and two good INF units in a hex adjacent to it. The leader activates to fire, the Pz IVH activates to move, and the leader activates the two adjacent units to fire. The Pz IVH first leaves the Assault hex (no free shot as there is still a HMG in the hex), and then the two INF enters the Assault hex. Rule 12.3, Voluntary Combat, applies at  this point.

A similar situation arises if there is a good order tank leader in an Assault hex and good order units adjacent to it that the tank leader can activate.