Liberation, the game that saved PG

[leonard]

I've been to Caen and the terrain to the south and west is far more open than to the east. Also along the coast and for a few miles inland I saw no hedge rows. So if the fighting is supposed to be on the more open terrain then it is correct. Also the impression I got was Lib 44 covered 21 Army group in the post Normandy advance too. Was that incorrect?

Lib '44 has three main themes : the invasion days near Gold an Sword beaches, Goodwood and Bluecoat. Near Gold and Sword beaches, terrain is "mixed" : that means a lot of hedges, patches of woods and some marshy areas. Of course, all these hedges have not a random pattern : they are aligned on roads and concentrated around the villages (not at all like map 59, for example). Regarding the British Para scenarios around Ranville, the terrain should have more density with lots of woods and hedges. Goodwood involves more open country but certainly not by Russian steppes standards ! Line of sight never exceeds 1 km and woods are also numerous (Troarn region). For Villers Bocage scenario (Wittman etc), I'll let you guess what the village name might mean...
Finally, Bluecoat : this is total bocage area, south of Caumont and near St Martin des besaces. The Germans even concentrated their defences along the roads since they were thinking the Scots would not try to cross the thick hedgerows. However the Churchill tanks were able to drive through the hedgerows and helped the British to conquer the dominating hills... until the arrival of a company of JagdPanthers (that scenario is not in the game, unfortunately).
On Bluecoat, see the excellent books of my late friend, Ian Daglish (sadly, he died in a plane crash, two or three years ago).

[Michael Murphy]

Backing this conversation up momentarily to the OT, does anybody know for sure if the new issue counters will be of a more conventional thickness, and will the map be an upgraded copy? I don't see a definitive answer here for either question. I'd like to pick up a copy of the game if it's an improved edition and while it's still on sale.

Thanks. Michael

[zaarin7]

Not OT sorry but in responce. I have play tested published and non-published games. Maps for games are by deffinition a compromise especially geomorphic ones like the PG ones. They have to mate up on at least 2 sides forming a corner. As an example maps for Panzerblitz and Panzer Leader have some slight differences at the edges. So somebody on one of the Yahoo PB groups made a blending board that can be placed between a PB and PL board long ways to take care of the differences.

Michael my finances don't allow getting either version so sorry or I'd of answered your question.

[Michael Murphy]

My apologies if I've caused any offense, certainly none was intended.

[vince hughes]

Given the problems with the dark maps and the absurdly thick counters it would make more sense to say, "Liberation, the game that nearly killed PG."

Another one that agrees with you Joe. Unfortunately, it proved to be the death knell in my PG career too. Not I hasten to add through Mike Perryman's excellent work, but instead, through production values of maps and counters at odds with my tastes and then the subsequent customer service response (ie - Buy another set).

[leonard]

Given the problems with the dark maps and the absurdly thick counters it would make more sense to say, "Liberation, the game that nearly killed PG."

Another one that agrees with you Joe. Unfortunately, it proved to be the death knell in my PG career too. Not I hasten to add through Mike Perryman's excellent work, but instead, through production values of maps and counters at odds with my tastes and then the subsequent customer service response (ie - Buy another set).

Come back, Vince ! The Belgians will make their appearance one of these days...

[joe_oppenheimer]

Vince was the first person I thought of after I got done gasping over the idea that Larry would describe Liberation as "saving PG".

[larry marak]

It saved PG by generating a groudswell of opposition to 1/8th inch thick counters. Can you imagine your collection today with one set of counters sized to work with 3rd edition rules, and another set sized to work with 4th edition releases? SWAS ended up with one "fatburger" title, PG with 1, and GWAS with 2. I believe Vince sold off his Liberation right away, (due to the dark contrast on his copy of the map), and the publisher left a sour taste in his mouth. I had the same problem with Saipan, my copy was unplayable as printed. Hope Vince comes back; its nice to see a master at work, and I do believe he is a master of German defensive tactics.

[vince hughes]

Larry,

Thanks for the complimentary words and I had some very enjoyable times indeed. I certainly do take pride in my Westwall defensive records with 'Jerry' which were all against real-life opponents rather than solo. Especially the more so when compared to other gamers plays that had results going the US way in their games.

The 6 years or so of PG did at least get me back into wargaming after a long hiatus and has also found me some lovely and valuable gaming buddies around the World that I can play other games with now online, on Skype and on VASSAL. At this time I am trying out two other platoon type games, one very similar indeed to PG. I have also been branching out into other periods with a slant on not overly long rulebooks (that's what drew me to PG and captured my imagination). Big rule books do become a bind for me personally.

I will admit that the new branch into alt-history (SGW?) would have been another 'thorn' in my side had I still been playing PG, but it seems to be being welcomed here at least. Not for this old carmudgeon though :-)

[vince hughes]

Given the problems with the dark maps and the absurdly thick counters it would make more sense to say, "Liberation, the game that nearly killed PG."

Another one that agrees with you Joe. Unfortunately, it proved to be the death knell in my PG career too. Not I hasten to add through Mike Perryman's excellent work, but instead, through production values of maps and counters at odds with my tastes and then the subsequent customer service response (ie - Buy another set).

Come back, Vince ! The Belgians will make their appearance one of these days...

I'm often in Belgium if you need me!   Should be in Bruges in 2 weeks time or so. Just returned from another 5 days in Berlin, but off again next week to all 4 Scandic countries then St Petersburg, Talinn (Estonia) and Rostock before hitting Belgium. I then have what? .... 50 odd working days left before I retire from the 'Force' ...... So a busy old year