A Question for Mike Perryman

[rerathbun]

Mike,

I was entering the stats for the new counters from Army at Dawn on the Units Page and I have a question.

Is the French 47mm the same as the 47mm APX from Fall of France, or is it a different gun?

In AaD the 47mm has an anti-tank value of 3-5, whereas in FoF its value is 5-5. Is it the same gun (rerated), same gun (better ammo in FoF) or a different gun? If it's a different gun I'll add an entry for it.

Thanks,
Robin

[leonard]

Is the French 47mm the same as the 47mm APX from Fall of France, or is it a different gun?

I will reply for FoF : the French APX gun fired a tungsten core AT shell (only) and its effect against German tanks was terrific in 1940. However they were not sited at the front and were a rare sight in 1940.
The same gun was indeed used in Africa mainly issued from the Syrian
Vichy forces.

[zaarin7]

So if it was a rare gun then there should only be one or two of them in FoF and all the rest should be as in AaD. Instead IIRC every piece is 5-5 in FoF and that is what was asked why did the global rating change?

[Coniglius]

So if it was a rare gun then there should only be one or two of them in FoF and all the rest should be as in AaD. Instead IIRC every piece is 5-5 in FoF and that is what was asked why did the global rating change?

I only see 3x such counters in FoF. The problem with the gun was that it was not universally distributed in time for the battle. Very few actually made it into French OOB's.
The 47mm SA mle 1937 was designed by the French firm Atelier de Puteaux hence the 'APX' designation. It fired an Armor Piercing Capped Ballistic Cap (APCBC) round. Originally this was just an APC round (Armor-Piercing Capped) which was not terribly accurate, and did not penetrate as well (there's your 3-5 rating).
The addition of the Ballistic Cap (APCBC) increased accuracy, and minimized the loss of in flight velocity, thereby increasing its penetration likelihood (5-5 rating); much to the chagrin of German tanks who actually met them.

I imagine the colonial troops would have the older ammunition while the metropolitan troops would have had better access to the improved rounds.

More common was the 47mm mle 31 which was designed for the Belgians. These saw widespread service against the Germans in 1940. It fired a standard APC round, although a bit heavier than normal, which allowed it to penetrate even a PZ-IV. Hundreds of these found their way to Hungary after the Belgian collapse.

[rerathbun]

That's one of the things I love about PG-HQ. There's a fantastic wealth of information among the members.

Now I'm leaning toward adding a separate Unit page for the 47mm, to separate it from the APX version. I know it's the same gun, but the ammo makes all the difference and it will make a difference if future expansion books use the 47mm/47mm APX drawn from different games.

[zaarin7]

Then for accurate's sake should you subsitute some of the AaD 47mm counters for the FoF ones or are all of those historicaly accurate? I have read that the 47mm was the most effective gun in the Battle of France better than the 75mm because it could be hidden easier.

[leonard]

The problem with the gun was that it was not universally distributed in time for the battle. Very few actually made it into French OOB's.
The 47mm SA mle 1937 was designed by the French firm Atelier de Puteaux hence the 'APX' designation. It fired an Armor Piercing Capped Ballistic Cap (APCBC) round. Originally this was just an APC round (Armor-Piercing Capped) which was not terribly accurate, and did not penetrate as well (there's your 3-5 rating).
The addition of the Ballistic Cap (APCBC) increased accuracy, and minimized the loss of in flight velocity, thereby increasing its penetration likelihood (5-5 rating); much to the chagrin of German tanks who actually met them.

I imagine the colonial troops would have the older ammunition while the metropolitan troops would have had better access to the improved rounds.

More common was the 47mm mle 31 which was designed for the Belgians. These saw widespread service against the Germans in 1940. It fired a standard APC round, although a bit heavier than normal, which allowed it to penetrate even a PZ-IV. Hundreds of these found their way to Hungary after the Belgian collapse.

There was actually a fair number of these guns in 1940 ; however it belonged to the artillery and was thus usually positioned at the rear...

Regarding the type of ammo used for the 47mm mle 37, I can't find any serious indication of the difference you have mentioned. Right from the start, the mle 1936 shell (tungsten steel) appeared to be the best choice and there was no accuracy problem (the cap actually contained magnesium to be used as a tracer). The other ammunition types are : high explosive mle 32 (not available to the troops) and a kind of canister (idem).
The performances were : piercing 57 mm at 1500m range (0° incidence), 72mm at 1 km (idem), 89mm at 500m (idem) and 106mm at 100m (idem).

Belgian 47mm FRC had lower performances and they were not used by the French.

In Africa, the Free French used 47mm APX AT guns borrowed from the Syrian arsenal and captured Italian 47mm guns. The Italian ones are probably the ones portrayed by this counter.

[thomaso827]

Whenever you gentlemen have the AAD stuff far enough along, I'm ready with my first session with it. I don't know what all goes into it and appreciate the work, and if there is something like typing text that you can copy and paste from on scenario descriptions or such, let me know. Thanks for all you do.

Tom Oxley