[split] Double Blind questions

[cjsiam]

My patient opponent and I are trying out the Double Blind thing....
Generally successful---but little details come up:
1) The rule pdf says that " Observation points are what actually see other units."  And this is critically important I think...
Peter please verify these ramifications of that:

a) Because OP are the things that observe---if you (for example) are lined up along a forest edge, if you do not have an OP either on a unit
  along that forest edge, or in a hex in front (which infantry can do)---you cannot see anything happening in front of you....in the open in front
  of the forest, because you DO NOT have an OP able to observe.....
    (it is legal to set up the OP behind the units on the forest edge...the adjacent units can see the OP...thus they become OP themselves to see other units 
     on either side--- this is about hiding your intentions being balanced by having visibility into the approaches to the forest)

b) along the same lines...should an enemy OP appear within 12 hexes of that tree line, in the open--where Initially you did NOT have an OP
     which could see them----on your Activation you could place an OP on or in front of your unit
      - --and at that point (or at the end of the Activation???) you would be able to observe from that OP.

2) Reviewing the "process" of exposure....The situation: two Tree lines face each other at 3hex distance....The Germans have set up in the treeline...and have placed
   OP on/or in front of their units in the trees...the units remain "unobserved"

    The Stout Russians, (who are also unobserved at this point behind the front hexrow of trees) are represented by an OP...which is visible to the horde of russians
      moving through the woods.

  On a russian Activation, the Russian move an infantry unit/with OP to the treeline

   This OP is then visible to the German OP

    The Infantry unit it was is thus revealed---at that instant.  The OP moves back to the originating hex which has other units as yet unmoved.

    At that point the Germans DO NOT reveal---as the Russians have not completed their Activiation segment.

    They move other infantry up to the Tree line.

     The Russians complete their activation their exposed units BECOME OPs.

     At this point, the German must reveal any units within 3hexes in the limiting terrain to the Russian Units/OPs.

     It would typically be the German activation....

     But if the Russians had a second activation, and had either a leader now on the treeline (to call in bombardment) or another unit which had LOS to the German Treeline,
       they could fire in that 2nd activation.

    Had the German chosen to take Opportunity Fire from the treeline DURING the Russian activation THOSE firing units would be observed, and spotted.

Let me know if we got this right please.

And in fact, if a unit of the enemy moved, and their OP reached within 3 hexes of that forest edge---at the END of his activation 

[Dan Storm]

This may require a "for example" screenshot with hypothetical units...

[plloyd1010]

My patient opponent and I are trying out the Double Blind thing....
Generally successful---but little details come up:
1) The rule pdf says that " Observation points are what actually see other units."  And this is critically important I think...
Peter please verify these ramifications of that:

a) Because OP are the things that observe---if you (for example) are lined up along a forest edge, if you do not have an OP either on a unit
  along that forest edge, or in a hex in front (which infantry can do)---you cannot see anything happening in front of you....in the open in front
  of the forest, because you DO NOT have an OP able to observe.....
    (it is legal to set up the OP behind the units on the forest edge...the adjacent units can see the OP...thus they become OP themselves to see other units 
     on either side--- this is about hiding your intentions being balanced by having visibility into the approaches to the forest)

It would be legal to set up that way. Problem is, it doesn't work. Only units seen by the enemy become observation points. So the units that are in the treeline cannot see anything until an enemy observation point sees them. Depending on how your opponent advances, you may need to use the blundering contact procedure. I know I detailed it in the original article, don't think it is in the extension.

b) along the same lines...should an enemy OP appear within 12 hexes of that tree line, in the open--where Initially you did NOT have an OP
     which could see them----on your Activation you could place an OP on or in front of your unit
      - --and at that point (or at the end of the Activation???) you would be able to observe from that OP.

Yes, you could do that.

2) Reviewing the "process" of exposure....The situation: two Tree lines face each other at 3hex distance....The Germans have set up in the treeline...and have placed
   OP on/or in front of their units in the trees...the units remain "unobserved"

    The Stout Russians, (who are also unobserved at this point behind the front hexrow of trees) are represented by an OP...which is visible to the horde of russians
      moving through the woods.

  On a russian Activation, the Russian move an infantry unit/with OP to the treeline

   This OP is then visible to the German OP

    The Infantry unit it was is thus revealed---at that instant.  The OP moves back to the originating hex which has other units as yet unmoved.

    At that point the Germans DO NOT reveal---as the Russians have not completed their Activiation segment.

    They move other infantry up to the Tree line.

     The Russians complete their activation their exposed units BECOME OPs.

     At this point, the German must reveal any units within 3hexes in the limiting terrain to the Russian Units/OPs.

     It would typically be the German activation....

     But if the Russians had a second activation, and had either a leader now on the treeline (to call in bombardment) or another unit which had LOS to the German Treeline,
       they could fire in that 2nd activation.

    Had the German chosen to take Opportunity Fire from the treeline DURING the Russian activation THOSE firing units would be observed, and spotted.

Let me know if we got this right please.

And in fact, if a unit of the enemy moved, and their OP reached within 3 hexes of that forest edge---at the END of his activation 

I don't think I entirely followed that. The salient point seems to be when the Soviet INF moves up to the edge of the trees. At that point I think he is observable by the Germans, thus the INF starts observing. The INF would then see the Germans within sighting range, who would then see Soviet units withing sighting range, and back and forth until everyone who can see someone is seeing whom they should see. (Or something like that.)

[cjsiam]

Double-blind was originally a FtF scheme. Since Vassal hadn't been mentioned, it would be good to generate interest in the community at large.

Peter how would a FtF thing run with Double blind....
does each player have their own board, and a "common board"?

otherwise---how do you know where your units are, etc?

In VASSAL, it's just about a perfect use of the media/tool.....but with cardboard....you'd need 3 boards to play the game?
Axis (his ground truth); Common (what everyone can see and agree is seen--here is where OPs are seen); Allied (his ground truth)

I see that this would work...is that what you intended?

[plloyd1010]

You need 2 games, and a divider. It also works really well with tele-games.
You declare your OPs, your opponent does the same. Then it becomes a back & forth of the OP(opposing) in hex xx-xxx can see blah, blah, blah. Then the OP/guys in hex xx-xxx can see blah, blah, blah. On and on until everyone can see someone is seeing who they can see. Sometimes you remove superfluous OPs. Sometimes it is good to stop and just do an Observation check to keep things in order.