prokhorovka?

[chief2000]

Got South Flank recently and was expecting something on the climactic battle on 12 July at Prokhorovka. I see bits and pieces but not the massive engagement. Anyone know why that was the case from a design perspective? Has anyone created a DYO scenario?

[plloyd1010]

Firstly, for an overview of Prokhorovka, you would need to scale it down (a lot). PG works best when forces are sized between battalion task forces & regimental combat teams. That makes about 20-50 units per side. Really big scenarios can have over 100 pieces on a side, but they become more unwieldy beyond the 50ish unit size. At Prokhorovka there are 3 SS divisions against a Guards tank army.

Someone tried to recreate the Battle of Brody (at least as many tanks as at Kursk) a year or 2 ago over on ConSim. I don't think it turned out too well.

[Hugmenot]

How many units and maps would such a large battle require?

Many had purchased and pre-paid for Kursk: South Flank years ago and got two games (South Flank and Burning Tigers) and Avalanche probably loss money on each and every one of those sales (someone can jump in and say how much was the pre-pub price years ago). Avalanche Press was in a very difficult financial position before they manufactured Kursk: South Flank and I believe they would have gone under had they tried to publish an even bigger game.

Maybe we will such a scenario in a future scenario book (or as Daily content). I have played a few 30 turn scenarios with 300+ units and those took me at least 18 hours to play. A 600+ counters scenario would take 40+ hours. It's doable and takes no more time than some of the other bigger games out there.

[plloyd1010]

The original price of Kursk 1943: Operation Zitadelle was $75. I ordered mine March 2, 2009.

As far as number of counters figure 60 for a SS PG regiment (including transport), and there are 2 of them. There are another 63 (nominally for 2nd SS) AFV counters. Another 80-90 to cover artillery & support (including the transport). That is pushing 300 for an SS Pz division, and there are 3 present. The Russians are going to be worse. Maybe 5-6 games for the pieces. 12 or 16 maps? I could get better numbers, but I'm at lunch.

[zaarin7]

Prochorovka is actually covered best by the Grognard Simulations, Inc. game Death Ride Kursk-Leibstandarte IMHO.

The 2 best books, again IMHO, on the first 2 weeks of the campaign are "The Battle of Kursk" by Glantz and House and "Blood, Steel and Myth" by Nipe.

[warstudent]

Maybe 5-6 games for the pieces. 12 or 16 maps?

Instead of having the ENTIRE battle laid out all at once (counters and maps), couldn't it be broken up into interconnected scenarios in a campaign game? The results of each scenario integrating into the others.

More importantly, would there be an interest & would it sell? If it would sell and utilizing one or both of the Kursk games it would only need to be an add on.

Avalanche would only need to create a few extra maps and the integrating campaign. I'm assuming the research and info for the battle was already done when creating the 2 Kursk games. The effort to create and cost of this new one should be a lot less than a new game.

[plloyd1010]

Instead of having the ENTIRE battle laid out all at once (counters and maps), couldn't it be broken up into interconnected scenarios in a campaign game?

That wasn't the question I was asked. Personally, yes, but that gets back to a similar situation as is already in the scenario book. Oh, and no, I don't think it would sell. (Even I am not that geeky!)

[warstudent]

That wasn't the question I was asked.
I think you summed up the components that would be needed or in a campaign of the maps, units tracked / accounted for, which was why I used it.
Looking over Death Ride Kursk series which zaarin7 mentioned above, this is the kind of integration I had in mind.

Oh, and no, I don't think it would sell.
Without a lot of enthusiasm for and seeing what already exists with the extra modules for Death Ride Kursk (logistics, fire support, etc), there would be no potential benefit to AP in doing an extensive treatment as it already exists.

BTW for anybody interested in the Battle and getting an on the ground view, google street view is available in the area.
This link goes to the street view about 1.5 km southwest of Prokhorovka looking toward the city with the monument built as a memorial to the left. http://goo.gl/maps/AtAIH