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Spotting – some observations - Bluebell88A - 10-28-2014
Apologies in advance for the length of this post!
Reading up on the 4th Edition rules got me thinking about spotting:
8.0 When the unit or leader that spotted an enemy moves out of spotting range, the enemy is no longer spotted (there is no “passing” of the spotted information to others; exception 8.22).
8.22 When a unit occupying limiting terrain fires within LOS of an enemy, place a spotted marker on top of it...as long as the spotted marker remains on a unit, it’s considered to be in a clear hex for spotting purposes.....If a unit with a spotted marker on top of it moves to another hex that is either limiting terrain AND a greater distance than the TEC spotting range from enemy units, OR is outside the enemy LOS, remove the spotted marker from the unit.
8.23 Both foot and vehicle mounted recce units possess two special spotting abilities....Their second ability is that they can place a Spotted marker on any one enemy unit they can spot per turn, just as if the enemy unit had “blown its cover” by firing. Such spotted markers are removed as described earlier.
Now to consider some scenarios:
Common set up:
Suppose that a German AT gun unit is located in the edge of some woods; looking south there are 2 separate woods with a clear area between them. A road which is more than 3 hexes away runs east to west.
An American M4 unit and an M18 unit move along the road through one of the woods and take up positions on the edge of the woods. They are both more than 3 hexes away from the German AT guns.
Scenario 1:
The M4s move north until they are 3 hexes away from the AT guns and can spot them, so next turn they can open fire on them. The AT guns hold their fire. The rules do not permit the M4s inform the M18s about the AT guns’ position so the M18s cannot open fire on them.
If the M4s had been recce units instead, then in effect they could have informed the M18s by marking the AT guns with a Spotted marker (per 8.23).
I can see that recce units would have special abilities to be able to identify enemy unit locations (due to better training/optics/radios), but the M4s would need to know the AT guns’ location accurately enough to be able to open fire on them: so why couldn’t the M4s radio that information to the M18s?
One reason is to suppose that the rules take into account comms problems, especially early/mid war with the lack of reliable radios; but also late war as I am guessing that not all units would be on the same net even if they had working radios (especially some of the foot sloggers). However, that could affect the ability of some units to receive the target information from the recce unit.....
Scenario 2:
The M4s move into the clear terrain between the woods and are fired on by the AT guns. A Spotted marker is placed on the AT guns.
The M18s are in LOS and range and can now open fire.
The next turn an M36 unit drives along the road and into the open south of the AT guns’ position. Because the latter has a Spotted marker, the M36s can open fire on the following turn.
The problem I have with this is how do the M36s know exactly where the AT guns are located? Presumably the M4s or M18s radioed the information to them. But see Scenario 1 for potential comms problems.....
Conclusion:
Is it the intention of the rules to avoid book-keeping? If poor comms are to blame for not passing spotting information (Scenario 1), then late arriving units should not be allowed to spot enemy units that had fired earlier (Scenario 2) and a record would have to be kept of these late arrivals.
One other issue:
Scenario 3:
The M4s move into the clear terrain between the woods and are fired on by the AT guns. A Spotted marker is placed on them. Subsequently the M4s and M18s move away out of LOS of the AT guns before the M36s appear within LOS of the AT guns.
The rules state that the Spotted marker is removed if the AT guns move outside the enemy LOS. In this scenario the opposite occurs, so should the Spotted marker be removed or remain?
I would play this as follows:
Although the AT guns’ last known location remains noted by American units, any American units that come back into LOS and range cannot open fire on the AT guns because none of the original spotters are on hand to talk the newcomers onto the target (and given the potential comms problems, would the newcomers even know about their rough location?). The newcomers don’t know whether the AT guns are still there or if they have moved away: so I would remove the Spotted marker.
This interpretation of the rules goes some way towards balancing the inability of the non-recce units in Scenario 1 to “pass” spotted information to others.
Apologies again for the long post, but this has niggled away at me for a few days now and I still have not been able to reconcile the rules with what I think would actually happen! Have I missed something?
Tim
RE: Spotting – some observations - vince hughes - 10-28-2014
The difference between scenario 1 & 2 is simply that the AT gun fired in scenario 2 and has revealed its position.
In scenario 1, the Shermans advanced nearer and simply the closer range has helped reveal the enemy. Whether the M18's were 1 hex, 2 hexes or 3 hexes further away, that equates to another (in order) 200-400-600m away. PG does not have an area fire rule. If it did, then maybe there would be a way to allow such units to lay down a suppressive fire on the say so of the Shermans intel. For now, I wouldn't even think of comms being the issue, but simply the distance and the ability to see that far away (whether informed or not).
In scenario 2, i just see it that the AT gun has revealed its location and therefore the newly arrived M36's attain the knowledge of his whereabouts. Remember, although we play it as a series of turns each activations, it is meant to represent a simultaneous 15 minute period and sometimes it isn't. To reconcile it in your appreciation of the situation, you need to think that although you have or may have rolled for the fire of the Shermans before the arrival of the M36's, it is in fact still going on. Even if the Shermans do not fire, maybe the AT guns are blatting away as the M36's arrived.
scenario 3 - The rules state "If the spotted unit moves". One of the attractions of PG for me was the simplicity. I'd simply stick with the rules rather than involve myself in changes. That said, I am a face-to-facer player and never solo. If I were solo, I'd do the heck I wanted LOL !!
RE: Spotting – some observations - Michael Murphy - 10-28-2014
I play solo using RAW.
I have a related question for you. Since Recon units can place SPOTTED markers does this enable them to call in Bombardment Fire as well?
Thanks.
Michael
RE: Spotting – some observations - vince hughes - 10-28-2014
(10-28-2014, 08:47 AM)Michael Murphy Wrote: I play solo using RAW.
I have a related question for you. Since Recon units can place SPOTTED markers does this enable them to call in Bombardment Fire as well?
Thanks.
Michael
I play solo using RAW.
Then you are a very well-behaved PG'er
I have a related question for you. Since Recon units can place SPOTTED markers does this enable them to call in Bombardment Fire as well?
Good question. I'd say any leader WITH a Recon unit could use the Recon units spotting powers. However, that said. If they use their other special ability of placing a spotted marker on ONE unit per turn as per part two of rule 8.23, then that would probably open up that 'spotted' unit as a spottable target for other observers ?
RE: Spotting – some observations - Matt W - 10-28-2014
Vince/Michael:
The spotted marker permits any leader to "see" the hex as long as they are within spotting distance and the LOS is not blocked. Therefore, even if the recon unit doesn't have a leader, if they place the spotted marker and the hex can be seen by any leader at all the hex can be bombarded.
At least that is how I read it.
RE: Spotting – some observations - Michael Murphy - 10-28-2014
You would think so, but!
If Recon units are capable of doing the spotting then what prevents them from calling in the fire on their own without a leader's presence? I must admit to playing this one mostly RAW (needing a real leader to call in fire).
Anyway, the question occured to me and I don't see anything official to answer it.
Michael
RE: Spotting – some observations - Matt W - 10-28-2014
The operant phrase is in the introduction to Section 8.
8.0
"...Bombardment Fire is similar in that it affects the whole hex and at least one enemy unit in the target hex must be spotted, but either the firing unit OR a friendly leader can spot the enemy for Bombardment Fire."
As a result, the spotted marker, which removes the benefit of being in limiting terrain, only makes it possible for the leader or bombarding unit to see the target beyond normal spotting range.
RE: Spotting – some observations - vince hughes - 10-28-2014
(10-28-2014, 11:19 AM)Matt W Wrote: Vince/Michael:
The spotted marker permits any leader to "see" the hex as long as they are within spotting distance and the LOS is not blocked. Therefore, even if the recon unit doesn't have a leader, if they place the spotted marker and the hex can be seen by any leader at all the hex can be bombarded.
At least that is how I read it.
Matt,
Yes, that's what I meant in the second part of my post re 8.23.
RE: Spotting – some observations - vince hughes - 10-28-2014
(10-28-2014, 01:56 PM)Matt W Wrote: The operant phrase is in the introduction to Section 8.
8.0
"...Bombardment Fire is similar in that it affects the whole hex and at least one enemy unit in the target hex must be spotted, but either the firing unit OR a friendly leader can spot the enemy for Bombardment Fire."
As a result, the spotted marker, which removes the benefit of being in limiting terrain, only makes it possible for the leader or bombarding unit to see the target beyond normal spotting range.
Exactly right. Maybe I did not explain well beforehand, but 8.0 in hand with the second part of 8.23 means the UNIT is Spotted normally.
One other important point here. Notice the Recon unit can only Extra-Spot one UNIT and not a hex. Now for Bombardment and DF theat makes little difference when the effects are applied BUT for AP, firers would only be able to see the one unit.
That also means that only the unit needs to get itself unspotted and not all the occupants of the hex.
RE: Spotting – some observations - Matt W - 10-28-2014
I hate it when we agree...