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+--- Thread: Am I Going Mad (/showthread.php?tid=837)
Am I Going Mad - vince hughes - 06-23-2014
Reading briefly the posts on CSW I see that some people are ordering new Saipan Maps & Counters. I'm having a lot of difficulty accepting this state of affairs given the money I've plumped into the game system.
One poster, I think Dan Huffman even wrote that for the price of the two components (maps and countes), he might just as well have gotten a whole new Saipan game.
Not wishing to sound like I am digging at anybody because I am not. But is it fair that people, who want a playable box-set with decent counters and maps are ordering a second copy? If an acceptable standard can be produced now, why could it not have been on release? Surely, before the mass of components are rolled off the machine a sample is sent for inspection? Some would say (and maybe Dan too) that it is his choice to do so, so butt out. The reason I would give for not butting out is that I also have a lot of skin in the game too but have a different take. Unlike others I just can not bring myself to pay up for better produced components that should have been like that in the first place.
Very very disappointed at this and I will be more so if the same happens with Lib 44. Those maps are so awfully dark that any new produced maps should be sent for free with any future order if requested (to save on mass postage etc). Or on a more forgiving note (and because I love the game) ask people requiring the new maps to send a SAE therefore saving AP ALL postage costs. It seems without doubt now that the way to buy APL goods should be 2nd editions to avoid product that is going out not to the level it should be.
These errors are really nibbling away at me bit by bit in a game system I adore. With 50+ publications in the system, counters and maps should be rolling off with standard art and an expected level of production......... PLEASE !
RE: Am I Going Mad - warstudent - 06-23-2014
(06-23-2014, 06:02 PM)vince hughes Wrote: But is it fair that people, who want a playable box-set with decent counters and maps are ordering a second copy? If an acceptable standard can be produced now, why could it not have been on release?
Fairness aside, it's really stupid when you're trying to generate pre-orders and push the latest release. Why be a guinea pig?
RE: Am I Going Mad - vince hughes - 06-23-2014
(06-23-2014, 06:32 PM)warstudent Wrote:(06-23-2014, 06:02 PM)vince hughes Wrote: But is it fair that people, who want a playable box-set with decent counters and maps are ordering a second copy? If an acceptable standard can be produced now, why could it not have been on release?
Why be a guinea pig?
That's where I am with it, if not even further down the road unless things wise up.
RE: Am I Going Mad - Shad - 06-23-2014
This Marianas business has established three new principles one must keep in mind when dealing with AP:
- Almost every product is going to have multiple editions.
- Each subsequent edition will improve over the previous edition.
- Quality control on first-runs is poor.
RE: Am I Going Mad - campsawyer - 06-23-2014
I agree with this too snd hsve been vocal on the quality control with APL lately. They seem to be experimenting with there final production but not caring about the results. So as stated in other posts it is not worth first runs on the game.
At this point, I am not pre ordering and waiting for second runs to get it. Ss for the games that have the issues, I would like to plsy them. Having paid a good amount for them, I would like to get some value for them, so I will get the new msps. As for APL sending the free, thst eould be nice as it was there issue, but ss will be pointed out it is subjective. All who have posted so far have found this issue, but some will say the maps are fine to use, including APL. Rather thsn get into a "he said, she said" arugement, I choose to just get the maps so I can play. But this will cost APL as I will no get anymore preorders or first runs.
RE: Am I Going Mad - vince hughes - 06-23-2014
It will cost them as I have reached a point of not buying at all.
If the maps do not match each other from here on, then it'll be a No from me. Its just not good enough anymore. I have the 4th age set of Ethiopia, Army at Dawn and Kursk North on order and thereafter I think I am done. If something appears locally over here that I can inspect first hand, that will also be an option but as AP have said before .... That does not help them so much as they like sales to be direct rather than from vendors. But I can not justify paying such money and getting poorer quality maps than should have been produced (overly dark etc) or counters that just come as they do with each print and rarely match others gone before.
I think basically what has happened is that the downside to the system (and in my case there have been many lately) has finally beaten down and started to outweigh the goodside and I've given up a bit ? Bloody annoying as that is to me personally but the brain decides what the brain will. (shrugs)
RE: Am I Going Mad - Matt W - 06-23-2014
I now have far more PG than I will probably ever play and am starting to see that the multiple editions of the same product as repackaging (e.g. Airborne, Edelweiss and to some extent Heroes/Red Warriors) as old news. I found this previous level of repackaging to be unsustainable and insulting (e.g. the reprinting of the Iron Curtain, within Hammer, a nice value to new purchasers but to those of us who have the spiral bound edition kind of an insult to have to "buy" them again).
The more recent production problems including dark maps, counter of the month adventures and truly gawd-awful proofing and editing indeed lend themselves to the idea that capturing a second or third printing is a good idea. The good thing about print on demand is that edits to the product are easy and the latest printed version will always have the chance to be the best version ever completed. The downside is that it can generate an attitude that doesn't care so much about the first one out the door since "we can always fix that later". As noted above, that can teach your customers to wait until the bugs are out of the product. Teach too many of them and no one will buy the product, regardless of how good it could eventually be, as everyone is waiting for someone else to be the guinea pig.
Gotta say that I am leaning towards delaying future purchases. I did not buy the Saipan replacement maps. In 10 years I may rue that decision (as age takes my body down that slippery slope). for the future, though, I don't think that I want to end up with a bunch of first editions that have less play value than those that follow along.
If, as suggested, AVP was to provide upgraded material when production errors occur (like they did with Cone of Fire operational maps) that would be a very different thing. I would even be happy with the text material being available via the web (SPW/Decision Games had a requirement to fax or scan your product information to get a key to get the new version of the game specific rules to protect their copyright) but physical component problems like unplayable, dark maps need to be replaced at no cost to the original purchaser.
RE: Am I Going Mad - Matt W - 06-23-2014
Oh, and Vince, one cannot "go" somewhere if they are already there...
RE: Am I Going Mad - vince hughes - 06-23-2014
wibble wibble
RE: Am I Going Mad - Hugmenot - 06-24-2014
I bought the new Saipan maps. My old maps were certainly playable but many hexes were difficult to read at a glance due to their darkness. I am happy with the purchase but I believe AVP should have sold the replacements maps at cost plus a pittance to those who already own the game; something like $8-10, not $20.
I suspect my Liberation maps are not as dark as most because mine look fine if I do not put them under plexiglass. They are a bit difficult to read when under plexiglass but I won't use them that way unless AVP publishes a supplement which combines these maps with maps from other games. Kind of annoying nevertheless, just a minor annoyance in my case.
I know I am in the minority but I LOVE the Liberation '44 counters. I am aware of the issues Vince and others have raised but, for me, the tactile feel of these counters and the way they look far outweights these issues. My favorite counters and by a long shot.