+- PG-HQ Forums (https://www.pg-hq.com/comms)
+-- Forum: Panzer Grenadier (https://www.pg-hq.com/comms/forumdisplay.php?fid=3)
+--- Forum: Panzer Grenadier Rules (https://www.pg-hq.com/comms/forumdisplay.php?fid=9)
+--- Thread: "Tanks" having Armor Efficiency (/showthread.php?tid=813)
"Tanks" having Armor Efficiency - Blackcloud6 - 05-21-2014
In Liberation 44 the SRs state that German and British "tanks" have armor efficiency. But I can't find anywhere in the rules the definition of "tank." APCs are defined, Open Topped AFVs are as are Armored cars. "Tank Destroyers are somewhat defined in that the rules say the Marder I & III and the Achilles are TDs in Lib 44; but then it says nothing more about them. So is "tank" just some kind of generic term in PG, the equivalent to "AFV?"
To me, a tank is a turreted tracked vehicle. But rules-wise it does not appear defined.
So is it the tactical symbol that says what a "tank" is in PG? The Marder has this symbol so I assume it is a tank and thus gets armor efficiency, cor[/align]rect?
RE: "Tanks" having Armor Efficiency - Memenne - 05-21-2014
I think it's a matter of symbol on the counters.
See in the 3rd edition rules, on page 3, "unit types".
RE: "Tanks" having Armor Efficiency - vince hughes - 05-21-2014
Fred,
I go by the NATO symbol on the counter. That means things like StG's, although technically a tank destroyer or even assault gun, also benefits from effeciency as it too is allocated the.
Robin Rathburn I think compiled a list somewhere ?
RE: "Tanks" having Armor Efficiency - Matt W - 05-21-2014
I agree re: the NATO symbol.
RE: "Tanks" having Armor Efficiency - plloyd1010 - 05-21-2014
This has been a little fuzzy for a while, but the consensuses is pretty much as Vince says. Most of the weirdness with armor is circumvented by other rules (like Italian tankettes and U.S. vs. German tank destroyers). Technically "armor efficiency" should be "gunnery efficiency", I think that does actually get sorted in the 4th edition.
RE: "Tanks" having Armor Efficiency - Blackcloud6 - 05-22-2014
This really is one of those obvious things right in front of us but it may be so overlooked because of where it is at in the rules and that the symbol is so small on the counter one may assume it has no use. P 3 of the rules has a chart called unit types and it shows the symbols. The symbol for tank is the traditional NATO tank symbol, the Marder has this symbol; the rule in Liberation 44, rule 9, states "All German and British tanks in Liberation have leaders and armor efficiency." Duh! Fred slaps forehead; this one is easy!
RE: "Tanks" having Armor Efficiency - nbisada - 08-04-2014
Armor Efficiency (11.2) is not synonymous with Intrinsic Armor Leaders (6.8). British AFVs after Aug 1943 (presumably Sept, Oct, Nov, Dec 1943) have Intrinsic Armor Leaders but are not Efficient until Jan 1944. Is there a Daily Content or a thread discussing this?
RE: "Tanks" having Armor Efficiency - plloyd1010 - 08-04-2014
Fred, if it looks like this:
It is armor under the efficiency rule. Everything else is something else. We call the rule "gunnery" efficiency. It looks like 4th edition has adopted a couple of "efficiencies".
RE: "Tanks" having Armor Efficiency - Poor Yorek - 08-05-2014
Per 4th Ed Rules 11.2:
The following units have "armor efficiency":
- Full-strength (not reduced) German AFV units;
- Full-strength Soviet Guards AFV units in scenarios taking place in 1943 or later;
- Full-strength American, Commonwealth, French and Polish AFV units in scenarios taking place in 1944 or later
- Others specified in a game's special rules.
So presumably allied armored units in the upcoming Tunisia game will not be efficient unless the fourth bullet intervenes.
OP: since "tanks" are AFVs, bullet three applies. But any AFV with a printed AT value that satisfies one of the above categories is efficient unless precluded by an SSR (bullet four opens efficiency to others).
PS "Tank" is defined in 4th Ed on page 5 of the ruleset. The tank symbol is alluded to. Perhaps most notable is the exclusion list: self-propelled artillery, reconnaissance, and APCs, but "engineering vehicles" such as the Crab and Crocodile as well as tank destroyers are counted as "tanks."
RE: "Tanks" having Armor Efficiency - vince hughes - 08-05-2014
A good example of your bullet 4 list are the UK troops in Desert Rats and Afrika Korps in most scenarios which are normally 1941