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AT Fire at night - no modifier? - vulcan558 - 11-14-2013
I've just played a night scenario with AFVs and it has struck me that while direct and bombardment fire attract a -1 column modifier, there is no modifier for AT fire on night turns. In fact, in a scenario with 1 hex visibility, ALL AT fire will attract the +1 DRM for firing into an adjacent hex. This seems slightly counter-intuitive to me, as the whole point of the 1-hex visibility SSR is to reflect the fact that visibility is rubbish. Have I understood the rules correctly, or am I missing something here? Does anybody house-rule this situation?
Cheers
Rich
RE: AT Fire at night - no modifier? - campsawyer - 11-14-2013
Rich,
You are correct, no AT mod for night. You would think that there would be some negative effect on trying to hit something. I have not seen any house rules on this.
If you have some thoughts on this now is the time to speak up as there are rules revisions being done.
RE: AT Fire at night - no modifier? - vulcan558 - 11-14-2013
(11-14-2013, 06:24 AM)campsawyer Wrote: Rich,
You are correct, no AT mod for night. You would think that there would be some negative effect on trying to hit something. I have not seen any house rules on this.
If you have some thoughts on this now is the time to speak up as there are rules revisions being done.
My only thought was that it seemed a bit absurd - surely it's harder to spot and hit a tank in the dark than in daylight? And in terms of game mechanics, it's inconsistent - other non-assault fire suffers a modifier, so shouldn't AT fire as well? I would have a -1 DRM on AT fire on night turns.
More controversially, should Armour Efficiency apply at night? It reflects superior training of tank crews, but I'm not aware of any of the relevant combatants conducting extensive night-fighting training or making combat at night a key part of their doctrine. There were large scale night ops by armour (Operation Totalize springs to mind), but in that case, part of the point of advancing by night was to avoid a major engagement with enemy armour. I'm also aware that the Germans had IR night-fighting kit, but I believe this was too little and too late to have a massive impact? Please correct me if I'm wrong on this, it's just something that came to mind while thinking about the AT Fire DRM.
RE: AT Fire at night - no modifier? - campsawyer - 11-14-2013
(11-14-2013, 06:42 AM)vulcan558 Wrote:(11-14-2013, 06:24 AM)campsawyer Wrote: Rich,
You are correct, no AT mod for night. You would think that there would be some negative effect on trying to hit something. I have not seen any house rules on this.
If you have some thoughts on this now is the time to speak up as there are rules revisions being done.
My only thought was that it seemed a bit absurd - surely it's harder to spot and hit a tank in the dark than in daylight? And in terms of game mechanics, it's inconsistent - other non-assault fire suffers a modifier, so shouldn't AT fire as well? I would have a -1 DRM on AT fire on night turns.
More controversially, should Armour Efficiency apply at night? It reflects superior training of tank crews, but I'm not aware of any of the relevant combatants conducting extensive night-fighting training or making combat at night a key part of their doctrine. There were large scale night ops by armour (Operation Totalize springs to mind), but in that case, part of the point of advancing by night was to avoid a major engagement with enemy armour. I'm also aware that the Germans had IR night-fighting kit, but I believe this was too little and too late to have a massive impact? Please correct me if I'm wrong on this, it's just something that came to mind while thinking about the AT Fire DRM.
I would agree with having the mods consistent with the the DF/BF mods and seems plausible to reduce the effectiveness of the fire. As for the efficiency, this might a bit trickery as there would probably need to be some sort of reduction for non-efficient AFV's otherwise it becomes a one-sided modifier.
RE: AT Fire at night - no modifier? - vulcan558 - 11-14-2013
I was actually thinking more along the lines of armour efficiency not applying at all during night turns. If I am correct in the assumption (and I have made it rather glibly) that no side was markedly superior in night armour fighting than any other, taking armour efficiency away effectively levels the playing field - the only factors in play are the AT fire value and armour value of the units engaged. To me, this seems sensible based on the assumption I've made - if no nation specifcally trained it's crews in night fighting, no-one has the advantage represented by armour efficiency. I'm the first to admit there needs to be some research to back this up, it was just an offshoot of my thoughts on AT combat at night.
RE: AT Fire at night - no modifier? - campsawyer - 11-14-2013
(11-14-2013, 07:26 AM)vulcan558 Wrote: I was actually thinking more along the lines of armour efficiency not applying at all during night turns. If I am correct in the assumption (and I have made it rather glibly) that no side was markedly superior in night armour fighting than any other, taking armour efficiency away effectively levels the playing field - the only factors in play are the AT fire value and armour value of the units engaged. To me, this seems sensible based on the assumption I've made - if no nation specifcally trained it's crews in night fighting, no-one has the advantage represented by armour efficiency. I'm the first to admit there needs to be some research to back this up, it was just an offshoot of my thoughts on AT combat at night.
My though was for along the line that if an efficient AFV is penalized by the loss of the second shot, shouldn't the non-efficient AFV be somehow penalized too? Otherwise the non-efficient crews have now been elevated to the same level as the efficient crews with just the absence of daylight.
RE: AT Fire at night - no modifier? - Airlifter - 11-14-2013
Efficient crews are better at night as well as day--training, crew cohesion, etc. Probably should just be a global -1 for night shooting/fighting of all types.
RE: AT Fire at night - no modifier? - zaarin7 - 11-15-2013
I think going with a -1 to all non-assault combat would do it. I would not eliminate crew efficiently. I'll take this to the 4th ed discussion if it not has already been done.