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Activating kommissars - plloyd1010 - 09-26-2013
Or, WWJ{oey Stalin}D
We are chewing through PoE11, Desert Blitzkrieg. The “word” to describe this scenario would be BHOTT! If we are persistent, at the rate we are knocking down turns, we should finish about mid November.
That aside, the question came up about leaders activating kommissars in a chain activation. The technical answer is no. That was my initial position in the game too. As we went around the game operation idea, we came to the conclusion of, “why not?”. Game play doesn't gain much by forcing another activation round. In the end we decided to allow leaders to activate them (though that may change to senior leaders).
The next question became, what does everyone else think of this? Hence this post. Mostly I see kommissars activated by leaders as avoiding a mostly useless step, and is acceptable, even if non-historical.
RE: Activating kommissars - campsawyer - 09-26-2013
Peter, I would not count this as a useless activation, I would see it just as another hindrance of the Soviet command structure. By having to activate it requires the Soviet player to choose between activating the Komissar to try to recover the unit or do some other activation.
Komissars did not directly report to RKKA or Guards leaders but were political to enforce Stalin's communist doctrine. Having a possible Komissar structure for some of the larger scenarios with multiple Komissars might be interesting.
RE: Activating kommissars - Hugmenot - 09-26-2013
If I play a large (150+ units) solo, I allow kommissars to be activated by leaders because I believe the current Fog of War optional rule is too harsh towards disrupted and demoralized units.
As to whether it's realist, my answer is the end result feels more realist to me than having kommissars and units do nothing for hours on end in very large scenarios.
RE: Activating kommissars - vince hughes - 09-26-2013
Absolutely neutral.
I'd go with what my opponent wants to do.
I think in my recent game with Tony (just finished a few minutes ago), he was activating KOMs with leaders.
RE: Activating kommissars - tlangston28 - 09-26-2013
(09-26-2013, 06:52 AM)vince hughes Wrote: Absolutely neutral.
I'd go with what my opponent wants to do.
I think in my recent game with Tony (just finished a few minutes ago), he was activating KOMs with leaders.
Vince, I had no KOMs in the Tank Sausage... If I did they would have been scrambling around the Alamograd to recover and/or shoot the demoralized troops!
RE: Activating kommissars - vince hughes - 09-27-2013
No apologies, it was Matt.
I have played 3 x Russkie scenarios this week and am sadly getting senile .... ahem !!! I meant confused !
RE: Activating kommissars - Matt W - 09-27-2013
Sorry, I wasn't paying attention. I have always played the Kommisars as if they were tank leaders. If they are in a hex with a leader and that senior leader activates then the Kommissar can activate as well. The Kommissar does not activate as a subordinate leader therefore if he is involved in a chain activation he must be in the primary hex with the senior leader or he does not activate. In large scenarios with Kommissars I find this very constricting for the Soviet as the rules state that they must activate, not that the layer cannot pass without activating but that they must activate meaning that you must use one of your first three activations on the Kommissar.
That, of course, may be a too literal reading of the rules. How does everyone else play this?
RE: Activating kommissars - Hugmenot - 09-27-2013
Matt, I interpret 6.61 Required Movement and 6.65 Mandatory Re-Education as the Soviets cannot pass if they have a Kommissar who can re-educate a unit and move closer to a demoralized unit turn.
In my opinion, this is consistent with 14.42 Required Recovery which states that Every demoralized unit must attempt recovery at some point during the course of a turn. 14.42 is better written because it also states "14.42 Required Recovery: Every demoralized unit must attempt recovery at some point during the course of a turn (owning player chooses when). Thus, a player may not "pass" if he has demoralized units that haven't activated this turn - they must try to recover."
Maybe 6.61 and 6,65 should be modified to include these precisions in the 4th edition rules.
RE: Activating kommissars - rerathbun - 09-27-2013
(09-27-2013, 12:47 AM)Matt W Wrote: I have always played the Kommisars as if they were tank leaders. If they are in a hex with a leader and that senior leader activates then the Kommissar can activate as well. The Kommissar does not activate as a subordinate leader therefore if he is involved in a chain activation he must be in the primary hex with the senior leader or he does not activate. In large scenarios with Kommissars I find this very constricting for the Soviet as the rules state that they must activate, not that the layer cannot pass without activating but that they must activate meaning that you must use one of your first three activations on the Kommissar.
That, of course, may be a too literal reading of the rules. How does everyone else play this?
I agree with Matt on how the Kommissar activates. If you check the Annotated Rules, Rule 6.6, you'll note that it states that "KOMs are treated as leaders for purposes of being killed (6.7) and rolling morale, but otherwise do not function as leaders." (emphasis added) Also, the annotation says that "Leaders cannot activate Kommissars."
On the other hand, I agree with Hugmenot that you are not required to use your first three activations on your Kommissars. My take is that "must activate" is the same as the Demoralized unit's "Must attempt to recover morale on its activation." from Rule 14.3. Per 6.65, you are not allowed to pass if you have both Kommissars and Demoralized units which are unactivated.
RE: Activating kommissars - Matt W - 09-27-2013
I stand corrected (had I read the annotated rules again I would have seen that) and many of my demoralized units who faced the Kommissar's wrath will breathe slightly more easily when I pull the "8" morale Kommissar...