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+--- Thread: How to deal with better tanks than yours ? (/showthread.php?tid=408)
How to deal with better tanks than yours ? - Memenne - 12-04-2012
Hi,
I played yesterday the beginning of Bastard Tanks, from Elsenborn Ridge.
After three turns, 3 US tanks were destroyed by one Panther.
OK, I rolled well, but my opponent and I must admit we don't know what to do when the enemy has better tanks than yours. Each time we imagine a move, we arrive at the same conclusion : fail.
This is not the first time we have this problem, and we really need some help because we are really beginners. Maybe we do something completely wrong ? Or maybe there is a sort of doctrine to use in this case ?
Can you give us some tips ?
Thank you,
Manu
RE: How to deal with better tanks than yours ? - vince hughes - 12-04-2012
Use infantry to threaten the superior tank. If he fires try to get them in a position to swamp him.
Use cover (woods, buildings and height) to gain modifiers.
Don't fire if you don't need to. Make them commit first.
Work angles, get the crossfire when able.
Simple example. Why throw M4's in the face of Panthers ? It will be a lose-lose situation. Instead, get your M4's in limiting terrain 4 hexes or more away. Meantime, get your infantry to advance thus threatening the Panthers position. Then if the infantry do actually swarm him, your tanks will be free to move or even fire at your enemy as it is locked in assault.
I have had these problems when using PzIII's against KV1's and T34's
RE: How to deal with better tanks than yours ? - Memenne - 12-04-2012
Yes, we were thinking that infantry might be the key.
Thank you for your advices. We'll probably replay the scenario. And now, having this in mind, it's going to be quite different...
RE: How to deal with better tanks than yours ? - vince hughes - 12-04-2012
(12-04-2012, 08:19 PM)Memenne Wrote: Yes, we were thinking that infantry might be the key.
Thank you for your advices. We'll probably replay the scenario. And now, having this in mind, it's going to be quite different...
Memenne, I am out tonight 'On the Beers', but I shall try and have a look at the actual terrain and OOB's tomorrow to see how it might apply to your particular scenario.
RE: How to deal with better tanks than yours ? - Memenne - 12-04-2012
As you will see, infantry has open ground to cross to get to the villages (and VP's). And there is no smoke...
I think this one is hard for the Americans.
I'm wondering what's your opinion about that...
RE: How to deal with better tanks than yours ? - Poor Yorek - 12-05-2012
(12-04-2012, 08:19 PM)Memenne Wrote: Yes, we were thinking that infantry might be the key.
Which, of course, is why the "better tank" side is well advised to keep a few ground-pounders along-side as a shield if at all possible. Success depends in part on whether the other side has a surfeit of infantry or not (i.e. can "swarm" or not). WS#5 was an interesting test in this regard.
RtB #58 and #65 certainly illustrate what dug-in PzVIb's can do when situated on 60-m heights overlooking 15+ hexes of mostly clear terrain. In #65, air power was the key.
RE: How to deal with better tanks than yours ? - Memenne - 12-05-2012
Quote:Which, of course, is why the "better tank" side is well advised to keep a few ground-pounders along-side as a shield if at all possible.Indeed. The "combined arms" doctrine is particularly relevant in this case...
RE: How to deal with better tanks than yours ? - tlangston28 - 12-05-2012
I had this very same issue and nowhere did I see this more evident as in EFDx #10 where the Soviets have superior tanks but absolutely no INF support. The Germans used their INF and HMGs to swarm. Remember also that except for a few tanks, most move the same or a little better than foot troops in open terrain.
RE: How to deal with better tanks than yours ? - Matt W - 12-06-2012
I particularly enjoy the ease with which PG illustrates what was wrong with the Soviet 1941 doctrine of tank only forces. The introduction of tank riding SMG platoons in later war (see KSF for tons of examples) shows that just like us, the actual commanders learned from their mistakes!
Seriously, the best way to deal with superior tanks is, as mentioned above, combined arms tactics. For me these boil down to:
1. Infantry pressure, especially assault, many of the "superior" tanks gain their high armor values through slower movement.
2. Crossfire with reasonable AT capability
3. Extensive use of cover. "Charging" with your own AFVs is a great way to end up with wreck counters.
A certain level of losses need to be assumed when running up against such beasts so don't expect to get off scott free.
Also, be very aware of your victory conditions. If town control is part of victory, try to get the superior armor to commit to the town where, if you can strip off its leg supports you get an extra column bonus. The same thing can happen in woods but the armor has much less reason to chase you into the woods.
Use of bombardment is typically not worth the shot unless there isn't anything else to shoot at. You need to get an X or higher to even make the tank check morale.
Oh, and morale is a big deal. If you can get the tank disrupted you can get into position to swarm it. If you can get it to demoralize you can ignore it, usually for a few turns.
As the commander of these nasty things, nothing is more annoying than having it sit still because it doesn't have targets. They are typically counted on to provide some benefit through losses or intimidation and being ignored will get them all upset and possibly entice them to expose themselves (no, not that way!!, I mean to enter into a more dangerous position...) where you can pursue the above remedies.
One final note: For the commander of a flock of Shermans battling a Panther/Tiger/whatever: if losses aren't a significant piece of the victory conditions and you outnumber your opponent by 6-1 or so, move to get into crossfire positions and take the losses, a single hit dramatically changes the situation. The goal is to, at a minimum, reduce the opponent (typically the reduced morale at an M2 check following the loss will render the superior tank relatively toothless for a couple of turns permitting you to provide the coup de grace.
RE: How to deal with better tanks than yours ? - Memenne - 12-06-2012
Thank you guys for your answers and analysis, this is very helpful.
I'll try to practice it very soon in other scenarios.