+- PG-HQ Forums (https://www.pg-hq.com/comms)
+-- Forum: Panzer Grenadier (https://www.pg-hq.com/comms/forumdisplay.php?fid=3)
+--- Forum: Panzer Grenadier Rules (https://www.pg-hq.com/comms/forumdisplay.php?fid=9)
+--- Thread: Strongpoints (/showthread.php?tid=2977)
Strongpoints - Grognard Gunny - 07-04-2024
Under Special Rules (pg 33, 4 ed rules), 16.1 Strongpoints and Casemates, it states that "strongpoints get the First Fire when defending against assault (other units in the same hex do not)." That is well and good, but..... Does that mean that the strongpoint's fire is taken against the attacker FIRST, then the rest of the defenders taken in turn? Or what? It would make more sense to take the total of the defender's strength and attack the "Attackers" simultaneously.... perhaps to make the whole bunch First Fire? Ruling?
GG
RE: Strongpoints - treadasaurusrex - 07-04-2024
My take on this one is that the strongpoint defenders get an exclusive first fire in assault combat before their comrades in the same hex (outside the strongpoint) get to fire simultaneously with what may be left of the assaulting force.
RE: Strongpoints - Grognard Gunny - 07-04-2024
That is how I would read it also, but this also "detracts" from the overall affect the "whole" might have on the attackers. UNLESS you are suggesting that the strongpoint gets to fire TWICE! (????)
GG
RE: Strongpoints - triangular_cube - 07-04-2024
From 12.43
If the hex contains defending units that receive first fire and units which do not, the defending player may choose to take First Fire with only the units able to first fire (the others don't fire), OR use all his units and resolve the assault simultaneously with the attacker.
--------------------------
One could read that as the other units dont fire at all (instead of not firing during FF) when the first fire is elected but I don't think that is the intention of the passage.
To me it was defenders option
A) First fire with eligible units, normal fire separately with ineligible units.
OR
B) Normal Fire with all units
Just matters how it columns out to decide which is better.
RE: Strongpoints - cjsiam - 07-04-2024
Allowing ONLY the First fire from Casement/SP units---and the others Not getting to fire....
that seems very counter-intuitive....meaning why would you reinforce a strong point?
cube's proposal seems the better of the interpretations.....
I'm still left with thinking that reinforcing the strong point with other units is not sufficiently attractive...as I would
think it was in real life....(agreed/understood we are abstracting...but..it's called a strongpoint for a reason...)
RE: Strongpoints - plloyd1010 - 07-05-2024
(07-04-2024, 10:08 AM)treadasaurusrex Wrote: My take on this one is that the strongpoint defenders get an exclusive first fire in assault combat before their comrades in the same hex (outside the strongpoint) get to fire simultaneously with what may be left of the assaulting force.
No, that is not how is. Rule 12.43, halfway through the first paragraph says:
Quote:If the hex contains defending units that receive first fire and units which do not, the defending player may choose to take First Fire with only the units able to first fire (the others don't fire), OR use all his units and resolve the assault simultaneously with the attacker.
So if there is a strongpoint in a hex with other units, not dug in or entrenched, the strongpoint may take first fire alone and there is no other defensive fire, or it may join the other units in simultaneous defensive fire. Regardless, the attackers are not subject to 2 rounds of defensive fire.
RE: Strongpoints - triangular_cube - 07-05-2024
(07-05-2024, 02:22 AM)plloyd1010 Wrote:(07-04-2024, 10:08 AM)treadasaurusrex Wrote: My take on this one is that the strongpoint defenders get an exclusive first fire in assault combat before their comrades in the same hex (outside the strongpoint) get to fire simultaneously with what may be left of the assaulting force.
No, that is not how is. Rule 12.43, halfway through the first paragraph says:
Quote:If the hex contains defending units that receive first fire and units which do not, the defending player may choose to take First Fire with only the units able to first fire (the others don't fire), OR use all his units and resolve the assault simultaneously with the attacker.
So if there is a strongpoint in a hex with other units, not dug in or entrenched, the strongpoint may take first fire alone and there is no other defensive fire, or it may join the other units in simultaneous defensive fire. Regardless, the attackers are not subject to 2 rounds of defensive fire.
Its certainly strange that I'm not the one standing by the literal interpretation of the rules for once
Its a very valid reading of the rules to play it that way.
RE: Strongpoints - CavDo - 07-05-2024
(07-05-2024, 02:22 AM)plloyd1010 Wrote:Ah yes, another counter intuitive, convoluted and unrealistic rule that needs a rewrite and replacement.(07-04-2024, 10:08 AM)treadasaurusrex Wrote: My take on this one is that the strongpoint defenders get an exclusive first fire in assault combat before their comrades in the same hex (outside the strongpoint) get to fire simultaneously with what may be left of the assaulting force.
No, that is not how is. Rule 12.43, halfway through the first paragraph says:
Quote:If the hex contains defending units that receive first fire and units which do not, the defending player may choose to take First Fire with only the units able to first fire (the others don't fire), OR use all his units and resolve the assault simultaneously with the attacker.
So if there is a strongpoint in a hex with other units, not dug in or entrenched, the strongpoint may take first fire alone and there is no other defensive fire, or it may join the other units in simultaneous defensive fire. Regardless, the attackers are not subject to 2 rounds of defensive fire.
RE: Strongpoints - Grognard Gunny - 07-05-2024
I believe TC has it. I didn't see the bit in 12.43. (It wouldn't be the first time.) That is what I believe is what is intended, AND it makes sense.
GG
RE: Strongpoints - cjsiam - 07-05-2024
So....looking at the strongpoint rules...16.1....
How do they take casualties?
If I got a "X" result, can I take a step off the strong point, leaving the other combat units unscathed (save the M2...)?
I don't think "taking the hit" from a combat result vs. SP has been addressed...
If they could "absorb" some of the fire...might make them more useful....
It discusses demoralizing them .... rolling the "M2" against the SP could disrupt/demoralize--and eventually if they
fail they disappear...