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Demoralized unit in assault hex failing to recover while in entrenchment - plloyd1010 - 02-04-2024
There seems to be a conflict in the rules. Rule 14.31 says units in an entrenchment are not required to flee, and may remain in place at the owning player's discretion. On the other hand 14.35 says that demoralized units failing to recover must exit the assault hex.
So, would a demoralized unit, which fails to recover, be required to exit the assault hex?
I and my opponent have a difference of opinion on which rule take precedence.
P.S. Take that you rule lawyer haters!
RE: Demoralized unit in assault hex failing to recover while in entrenchment - cjsiam - 02-04-2024
Two issues....
1) Multiple historical incidents of AT guns standing ground until overrun.....Why would any unit run from protected entrenchments
into the open ---which would clearly put them at more risk then the entrenchment?
2) The 14.31 note an "Exception to fleeing while in Entrenchment".....while 14.35 says you must flee in Assault hex 1 hex...
I think the "Exception to fleeing" takes precedence over the later "you must leave assault hex" with only 1 hex movement....
3) I'm not sure this can be adjudicated.....the Exception 14.31 or the statement 14.35....I THINK the interpretation is that the
Exception is to the "has to flee" rule---but, I'm not sure that's the Authors intent....
RE: Demoralized unit in assault hex failing to recover while in entrenchment - garbare83686 - 02-04-2024
(02-04-2024, 12:38 PM)plloyd1010 Wrote: There seems to be a conflict in the rules. Rule 14.31 says units in an entrenchment are not required to flee, and may remain in place at the owning player's discretion. On the other hand 14.35 says that demoralized units failing to recover must exit the assault hex.I play it by following 14.35, they can stay and try to recover until the hex is assaulted, then a failure requires a retreat. I believe the wording "Demoralized units in an assault hex that fail a morale check must exit the hex, and may move only one hex when doing so (12.13). "
So, would a demoralized unit, which fails to recover, be required to exit the assault hex?
I and my opponent have a difference of opinion on which rule take precedence.
P.S. Take that you rule lawyer haters!
Edit - Found the vote button and voted yes they exit.
RE: Demoralized unit in assault hex failing to recover while in entrenchment - plloyd1010 - 02-05-2024
(02-04-2024, 03:39 PM)garbare83686 Wrote: I play it by following 14.35, they can stay and try to recover until the hex is assaulted, then a failure requires a retreat. I believe the wording "Demoralized units in an assault hex that fail a morale check must exit the hex, and may move only one hex when doing so (12.13). "
You don't seem to have voted that way.
RE: Demoralized unit in assault hex failing to recover while in entrenchment - Grognard Gunny - 02-05-2024
I can see where the "entrenched" area COULD be considered a "safe"(er) area than running amuck in the open in panic. Therefore I would read the rule(s) as: All units must run EXCEPT when in an entrenchment. (...and I believe that is exactly what was trying to be accomplished by the rules.) (Just my 2 cents worth.)
GG
RE: Demoralized unit in assault hex failing to recover while in entrenchment - garbare83686 - 02-05-2024
(02-05-2024, 12:00 AM)plloyd1010 Wrote:I read 14.35 as it is written, "Demoralized units in an assault hex that fail a morale check must exit the hex, and may move only one hex when doing so (12.13). " That means a unit can stay in an entrenchment unless it fails to recover with enemy units present. I think the word "must" clearly indicates that units in an assault hex that fail to recover must leave the hex. I didn't notice a vote button so I simply replied with how I do it.(02-04-2024, 03:39 PM)garbare83686 Wrote: I play it by following 14.35, they can stay and try to recover until the hex is assaulted, then a failure requires a retreat. I believe the wording "Demoralized units in an assault hex that fail a morale check must exit the hex, and may move only one hex when doing so (12.13). "
You don't seem to have voted that way.
RE: Demoralized unit in assault hex failing to recover while in entrenchment - triangular_cube - 02-05-2024
(02-05-2024, 12:32 PM)garbare83686 Wrote:(02-05-2024, 12:00 AM)plloyd1010 Wrote:I read 14.35 as it is written, "Demoralized units in an assault hex that fail a morale check must exit the hex, and may move only one hex when doing so (12.13). " That means a unit can stay in an entrenchment unless it fails to recover with enemy units present. I think the word "must" clearly indicates that units in an assault hex that fail to recover must leave the hex. I didn't notice a vote button so I simply replied with how I do it.(02-04-2024, 03:39 PM)garbare83686 Wrote: I play it by following 14.35, they can stay and try to recover until the hex is assaulted, then a failure requires a retreat. I believe the wording "Demoralized units in an assault hex that fail a morale check must exit the hex, and may move only one hex when doing so (12.13). "
You don't seem to have voted that way.
The word "Must" is used in the normal conditions of fleeing too, but is specifically overwritten by the entrenchments, turning it into a "may"; so using one instance of "Must" can't really be all that authoritative. Check 14.31
Admittedly I always played with the specific entrenchment rule overriding the assault condition without a second thought as in general, a specific exception overrides a general rule in wargaming. If someone is raising the assault condition rule to be a yet further specific rule overriding the entrenchment rule, I can certainly see the ambiguity even if it never read that way to me before...
Without an authoritative ruling on this, I think we are all just going to go in circles as to which is the more specific rule that trumps.
RE: Demoralized unit in assault hex failing to recover while in entrenchment - rerathbun - 02-06-2024
I've always assumed that assaults take precedence over trenches in determining whether fleeing is mandatory.
It seems reasonable to hunker down in your trench when the other side is 150 yards away shooting over your head. Less so when they're in the trench with you, or standing over it shooting down at you and lobbing in grenades.
RE: Demoralized unit in assault hex failing to recover while in entrenchment - cjsiam - 02-06-2024
So then, at that point running out of the Trench--taking the free shot, maybe into open terrain-- is more attractive...
I wonder...
RE: Demoralized unit in assault hex failing to recover while in entrenchment - Grognard Gunny - 02-07-2024
Once the bad guys are in the trenches and shooting at you..... perhaps the open area isn't so bad looking at that time. (Just sayin'.)
GG