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+--- Thread: 13.0 Do Mortars Get a +1 Shift on OP Fire? (/showthread.php?tid=2434)
13.0 Do Mortars Get a +1 Shift on OP Fire? - saracv3 - 12-20-2020
Mortars are the only bombardment weapons that get to use opportunity fire. Yet there is no specification that mortars receive the +1 column shift that direct fire units get, either on the bombardment chart or in the rules. Do they get this +1 shift?
RE: 13.0 Do Mortars Get a +1 Shift on OP Fire? - plloyd1010 - 12-20-2020
They don't get the +1 for firing on moving personnel units. Not a bombardment modifier.
They do get the +1 for the target hex being spotted by the firing unit.
RE: 13.0 Do Mortars Get a +1 Shift on OP Fire? - Juiceman - 12-20-2020
(12-20-2020, 12:23 PM)saracv3 Wrote: Mortars are the only bombardment weapons that get to use opportunity fire. Yet there is no specification that mortars receive the +1 column shift that direct fire units get, either on the bombardment chart or in the rules. Do they get this +1 shift?In my opinion they should get the +1 modifier, OP fire is when a unit is moving, and as such it is venerable to increased casualties due to it being exposed, especially infantry, so if a unit can take extra casualties due to DF do not see why the +1 modifier would not pertain to mortars using OP Fire. Was under the impression the venerability of the moving unit that the +1 modifier is representing (my interpretation). Interesting topic.
RE: 13.0 Do Mortars Get a +1 Shift on OP Fire? - saracv3 - 12-20-2020
Got it. Thanks gentlemen!
RE: 13.0 Do Mortars Get a +1 Shift on OP Fire? - plloyd1010 - 12-21-2020
(12-20-2020, 02:29 PM)Juiceman Wrote: In my opinion they should get the +1 modifier, OP fire is when a unit is moving, and as such it is venerable to increased casualties due to it being exposed, especially infantry, so if a unit can take extra casualties due to DF do not see why the +1 modifier would not pertain to mortars using OP Fire. Was under the impression the venerability of the moving unit that the +1 modifier is representing (my interpretation). Interesting topic.That would be a house rule. There is obviously no such modifier, applicable or otherwise, on the bombardment table. Are you arguing that mortars (lobbing bombs) can be aimed as accurately as rifles and machine-guns?
RE: 13.0 Do Mortars Get a +1 Shift on OP Fire? - plloyd1010 - 12-21-2020
(12-20-2020, 02:29 PM)Juiceman Wrote: In my opinion they should get the +1 modifier, OP fire is when a unit is moving, and as such it is venerable to increased casualties due to it being exposed, especially infantry, so if a unit can take extra casualties due to DF do not see why the +1 modifier would not pertain to mortars using OP Fire. Was under the impression the venerability of the moving unit that the +1 modifier is representing (my interpretation). Interesting topic.There is obviously no such modifier, applicable or otherwise, on the bombardment table. Furthermore, Drumfire from IA and the PG options, do not have such a modifier against moving targets. What you want is a house rule. Are you arguing that mortars (lobbing bombs) can be aimed as accurately as rifles and machine-guns?
RE: 13.0 Do Mortars Get a +1 Shift on OP Fire? - Juiceman - 12-21-2020
(12-21-2020, 12:12 AM)plloyd1010 Wrote:No I am not so bold as to say a mortar is as accurate as a rifle or machine gun, but they are different weapons systems with their own strengths and weaknesses but against moving infantry they all have the equal ability to suppress.(12-20-2020, 02:29 PM)Juiceman Wrote: In my opinion they should get the +1 modifier, OP fire is when a unit is moving, and as such it is venerable to increased casualties due to it being exposed, especially infantry, so if a unit can take extra casualties due to DF do not see why the +1 modifier would not pertain to mortars using OP Fire. Was under the impression the venerability of the moving unit that the +1 modifier is representing (my interpretation). Interesting topic.There is obviously no such modifier, applicable or otherwise, on the bombardment table. Furthermore, Drumfire from IA and the PG options, do not have such a modifier against moving targets. What you want is a house rule. Are you arguing that mortars (lobbing bombs) can be aimed as accurately as rifles and machine-guns?
Considering the fragmentary and concussion effects of a mortar shell exploding near advancing personnel units (2-6 tubes in game terms), yes they could have a similar effect as rifle & machine gun fire when it comes to suppression, not as high of a chance for KIA or step loss (as rifle or MG fire), but certainly having as high a chance (with +1 OP Fire Mod) for disruption & demoralization to moving units, it is getting the infantry to go to ground, to stop their advance, to suppress that makes Op fire from mortars potentially so effective and feared among advancing infantry, especially outside of effective rifle & machine gun range.
A good crew(s) with LOS to a target could put a number of shells down range and adjusting fall of shot rather quickly to bring a high concentration of shells on target relative to the game turn time frame.
Looking at my counter mix for the games I have, an 81mm is an 8 while a 60mm is a 5 fire power value on the Bombardment Chart, the modifiers would have to jump the columns to 16+ in order to have a chance (very remote, snake eyes at 16) for step loss but would increase likelihood of a moral check.
I am new to PG, working my way thru my first game on the Bloody Track in the Kokoda Campaign, so Op Fire opportunities with mortars have been none existent to date, so my opinion might change when I get to Europe or East Africa, but that is a long ways away.
Interesting topic, good discussion, will play as is, no column shifts but if I remember will try the house rule idea when we get to Europe to see how it works, might not like the taste of it after all.
All good stuff thanks.
RE: 13.0 Do Mortars Get a +1 Shift on OP Fire? - Juiceman - 12-21-2020
(12-21-2020, 12:12 AM)plloyd1010 Wrote:Did not mean to insinuate in my first post that there was a rule or modifier on the Bombardment Table for +1 Op Fire for mortars, thought the question was interesting and worth merit about adding to it, that is all I was trying to express. The term I should have included was house rule.(12-20-2020, 02:29 PM)Juiceman Wrote: In my opinion they should get the +1 modifier, OP fire is when a unit is moving, and as such it is venerable to increased casualties due to it being exposed, especially infantry, so if a unit can take extra casualties due to DF do not see why the +1 modifier would not pertain to mortars using OP Fire. Was under the impression the venerability of the moving unit that the +1 modifier is representing (my interpretation). Interesting topic.There is obviously no such modifier, applicable or otherwise, on the bombardment table. Furthermore, Drumfire from IA and the PG options, do not have such a modifier against moving targets. What you want is a house rule. Are you arguing that mortars (lobbing bombs) can be aimed as accurately as rifles and machine-guns?
RE: 13.0 Do Mortars Get a +1 Shift on OP Fire? - leonard - 12-21-2020
In opportunity fire, mortars already get +1 for spotting the target.
RE: 13.0 Do Mortars Get a +1 Shift on OP Fire? - plloyd1010 - 12-21-2020
(12-21-2020, 06:55 AM)Juiceman Wrote: Did not mean to insinuate in my first post that there was a rule or modifier on the Bombardment Table for +1 Op Fire for mortars, thought the question was interesting and worth merit about adding to it, that is all I was trying to express. The term I should have included was house rule.
No. You said you thought there should be, which includes the understanding of no rule now. A House Rule suggestion would have been a good way to put it.
The concept of being attacked by bombardment fire has been addressed 3 times in the rules system, mortars conducting opportunity fire has been addressed twice. None of those times have had bombardment opportunity fire getting a +1 against personnel units. So rules history is against the concept. I'll also point out that a second +1 has now doubled the strength of the mortars, something else to give one pause.
Accounts by mortar and infantry men very much give the impression that mortars do not track targets very well. (It probably has something to do with those 2 screws and a "winging it" calculation.) Light mortars might get away with it.