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Second-hand PDFs - Shad - 08-18-2012
This is a question I've had in the back of my mind ever since AP started offering PDF downloads, and I can't recall it being hashed out by the consumers on CSW or BGG or the old Yahoo! mailing list.
How do you feel about selling a PDF download to another wargamer?
The digital rights legal realm is still very much in its infancy. I'm curious to hear your opinions with respect to PG's digital offerings.
Personally, the idea of purchasing a digital download and then turning around and selling it to another person seems a bit smarmy to me. However, if the digital download was somehow out of print - be it through AP fiat or bankruptcy - I would probably have little qualms about making it available to others. That position is probably illegal per current laws, but I have little patience for things being OOP in the digital age.
* note - I am less interested in hearing what is legal than I am in hearing how you personally feel as a gamer / PG player / consumer.
RE: Second-hand PDFs - Matt W - 08-18-2012
I have purchased the pdf version of WotE and then purchased the print version. Once I purchased the print version I feel completely justified in disposing of the pdf version. Heck, I bought the thing twice. I would not, however, sell it to more than one other person. That would feel very wrong.
RE: Second-hand PDFs - JayTownsend - 08-19-2012
Well, if you took the time to make the counters and make holes & binding combs for the supplement so it is a normal folder, then selling your hard copy once should be ok.
All my downloads I made real supplement folders and real counters for. I doubt I have to do anymore, as AP is printing everything now it seems.
RE: Second-hand PDFs - Matt W - 08-19-2012
Jay, that is exactly it. I didn't actually mount the counters but all I provided were hard copies of the files. In addition, I didn't sell it I gave the hard copy away. Again the computer files I would not share and I would only provide the hard copy to one person.
RE: Second-hand PDFs - beast013 - 08-19-2012
I consider pdf files the same as software. I can sell them as long as I do not save any copies (print, back-up copies, etc.).
RE: Second-hand PDFs - campsawyer - 08-19-2012
Shad, I believe you need another option, "Sell if I was getting rid of the game."
I am a bit concerned by this posting this topic is very key to my business. Protection of intellectual property (IP) has been treated very cavalier sense the rise of the internet. To profit off of something you did not create and don't have rights as a reseller to is not the right thing to do, regardless of if it in print or not. The only exception to this is to dispose of an item. Selling it after you have used it and will not use or sell it again, is valid under most common laws.
RE: Second-hand PDFs - Shad - 08-19-2012
Don't be concerned, just air it out. I'm surprised this conversation hasn't happened before regarding PG's digital downloads, to be honest.
The problem I have with selling a PDF, whether you keep a copy or not, is that PDFs are not subject to wear like material goods are.
Obviously unlike printed wargames you can use it as much as you please without impacting its condition.
To this point the prices AP demands for PDFs are so low that I suspect they are affordable for all who wants them, but removing PDFs from sale troubles me.
Regarding the poll choices, there are a lot of other directions in the decision tree:
- if you made a PnP copy would you sell the digital copy and keep the PnP copy?\
- would you sell the digital copy and destroy the PnP copy?
- would you make a PnP copy for someone else? for free or not?
- etc.
AP is printing games again so this is less of risk for the present, but there will certainly come a time when only the digital copies remain with no AP to buy them from.
If you use Steam you'll know that resale of the games you "buy" is expressly forbidden by Valve. Whether this would hold up in court is, I believe, undetermined.
RE: Second-hand PDFs - larry marak - 08-19-2012
All this conversation makes me want to figure out (I really Don't understand computers much) how to transmit my files to a public library to print out color copies of unit counters, as my downloads are all on black and white.
How many PDF downloads of Avalanche products are currently no longer available, including both PG and other lines? In GWAS CSA Navy is gone, replaced by a different counter-manifest and new scenarios. Then there's The Marshall's Fist, a PG download that was available recently as a Gold Club exclusive.
One thing Avalanche has been verrrry concerned about from the get go was theft of intellectual property. Hence shying away from vassal among other options. I'm somewhat surprised Shad was able to get permission to publish the images of counters on the internet. While the owner has had some professional experiences with computer wargaming, or maybe BECAUSE of bad experience with computer wargaming, as well as documented bad experiences with another publisher, (Just Plain Wargames) he really doesn't want his company's work stolen.
Many of the rights to some of the SPI games are still in abeyance, although no-one appears to be the owner. And in some cases, the rights to famous products may never be sorted out, like the Batman television series from the 60's. Split ownership there is why no DVD's were ever released. (Okay, you are all about to hear about my puerile love of superhero media). The rights to Superboy the Series, seasons 2-4 are owned by the star of the show, who decided he WAS superman and bought ownership of the 3 seasons he was the star, , and will only allow individuals to buy copies he burns at very high prices.
RE: Second-hand PDFs - Shad - 08-20-2012
(08-19-2012, 02:00 PM)larry marak Wrote: I'm somewhat surprised Shad was able to get permission to publish the images of counters on the internet.
Don't be. Publishing poor quality scans of one side of individual counters is nowhere near a violation of copyright.
Posting PDF originals, the same digital files that the countersheet supplier receives, would certainly be.
Posting hi-res scans of a finished sheet, front and back, would probably be.
Posting assy-quality scans of sheets, as BGG now requires, is unproven but probably safe because no one is going to be able to recreate anything rivaling a real sheet with those.
Individual counters? Especially when some are as bad as this:
![[Image: 111-1.png]](http://www.pg-hq.com/units/111-1.png)
I wouldn't be surprised at all! The publisher may not like it, but the litigation would fail.
RE: Second-hand PDFs - Hugmenot - 08-21-2012
(08-19-2012, 02:00 PM)larry marak Wrote: How many PDF downloads of Avalanche products are currently no longer available, including both PG and other lines?I am too new to PG to know the answer but I do know AP added Black SS as a downloadable PDF a couple of months ago. I can certainly do without black SS counters and will include this PDF as part of my next purchase.
Given a choice, I will always purchase the PDF format over the printed format if it does not include counters or counters that i do not need. The ability to cut-and-paste the text is something I value. That the PDF is cheaper to purchase is just an added bonus to me.
From a seller's perspective, PDF do not require reprints and takes no physical place in the inventory. Furthermore, I would hazard many people are more likely to drop $6 to $10 for a downloadable PDF if they are just looking around, and not for a specific product.