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+--- Thread: Tactics - How to use APC's (/showthread.php?tid=166)
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Tactics - How to use APC's - JoeBuckeye - 07-26-2012
The scenario I'm playing now (Black SS #26) has a good number of APCs in it.
How do people generally use them?
With the ability to add them to a hex as a non-combat unit they can certainly beef up the direct fire ability of a hex but since they can't Dig In they are pretty much dead meat if any sort of armor or AT gun is in the area.
I also have a couple of questions around them:
1) Is it correct to assume that APC's have no bearing on the modifier for having 3 combat units in a hex? That having 1, 2, or 3 APC's in a hex have no column modifier?
2) APC's use the Motorized movement column, correct? They have the transport symbol so I always associate that with Motorized. This brings up a missed opportunity by APL when designing the PG counters. They should have used some sort of coloration or indicator with the movement factor number to indicate what type of movement the unit has. Black = motorized, white = foot, red = mechanized.
RE: Tactics - How to use APC's - vince hughes - 07-26-2012
(07-26-2012, 01:05 PM)JoeBuckeye Wrote: The scenario I'm playing now (Black SS #26) has a good number of APCs in it.
How do people generally use them?
With the ability to add them to a hex as a non-combat unit they can certainly beef up the direct fire ability of a hex but since they can't Dig In they are pretty much dead meat if any sort of armor or AT gun is in the area.
I also have a couple of questions around them:
1) Is it correct to assume that APC's have no bearing on the modifier for having 3 combat units in a hex? That having 1, 2, or 3 APC's in a hex have no column modifier?
2) APC's use the Motorized movement column, correct? They have the transport symbol so I always associate that with Motorized. This brings up a missed opportunity by APL when designing the PG counters. They should have used some sort of coloration or indicator with the movement factor number to indicate what type of movement the unit has. Black = motorized, white = foot, red = mechanized.
Joe,
APC's can dig-in.
See rule 4.3 = APC's are hybrid units. They are OPEN-TOP AFV's (my caps) that ACT as transports. They can, despite being AFV's also be activated by a 'foot' leader as well as tank leaders.
So they are not transports per se, but merely ACT as transports, thus allowing them to dig-in as AFV's.
1. APC's have no bearing on stacking. You could have 3 x APC's stacked with 2 x combat units on foot, and despite the 5 x units, it still DOES NOT receive the 3 stack +1 col.mod.
Also note, that if you have been using them classed solely as transports, make sure you are NOT removing one of them if a combat unit suffers an X in the hex (just like a truck, wagon or prime-mover is removed when a combat unit gets an X). They do not get eliminated like that.
The ultimate transport stack would be 3 x combat units on foot with 3 x APC's transporting a combat unit each for a total of 9 units .... However, woe betide you if any of these get forced to unload .... You'll be real trouble with end of activation eliminations.
2. Joe, sorry, wrong here too old mucker. APC's use the mechanised table (halftracks). See rule 5.1 - Mechanised = tanks, SP artillery, MOST APC's (For me this certainly includes hanomags, M3's and Bren carriers here). I'm personally struggling to think of a wheeled APC (apart from the 70's & 80's Russian one) but somebody will chime in I'm sure.
One more thing to remember are that the three I have mentioned are all open-topped. Therefore, immune to M results on the fire table, but suffer casualties with X results.
2X means that at least the 2nd step removed has to be an open-topped vehicle
X means if NO OTHER units in the hex with an open-top unit (this does not inlude the guys being transported BTW), then they must absorb the X result meaning any of its cargo would be lost as well.
As to how they are used, which was your thread opener ..... As the situation demands. Sometimes, due to certain nearby enemies, they can not be used offensively at all. Each scenario will determine how to use them in your own mind. I certainly don't put mine up to be needlessly and wastefully blasted away.
Also, beware using them just because they are IN the scenario. PG has a habit of supplying all units in the OOB whether required or not. Therefore, their mere existence in a scenario should not be taken as a 'clue' that they need to be used. Mike Perryman is particularly good at supplying complete OOB's for his scenarios, and I like this historical aspect where some units are simply not of much use as they might be in another game.
Vince
RE: Tactics - How to use APC's - Michael Murphy - 07-26-2012
Just to follow up here, the original Arctic Front has at least a couple of scenarios with Soviet ATG, even though the Finns have no tanks or vehicles. These guns are quite useless but are present because Stavka decreed this.
RE: Tactics - How to use APC's - campsawyer - 07-26-2012
Vince is spot on with the answer. One point to add, a loss of an APC does count toward initiative loss and any VC steps losses.
RE: Tactics - How to use APC's - Matt W - 07-26-2012
If I remember correctly there are some Indian APCs that are motorized. Then again, no one has ever suggested my memory as particularly stellar.
RE: Tactics - How to use APC's - Hugmenot - 07-26-2012
PG-HQ lists India's ACW as an open-top APC using motorized movement.
It also lists India's Bren as an open-top APC using motorized movement and Britain's version as an open-top APC using mechanized movement.
RE: Tactics - How to use APC's - plloyd1010 - 07-27-2012
Tactics eh? Well Joe, I mostly use them for 2 things:
- Artillery cover in like areas.
- Assault cover and support.
Second condition is that pesky +3 modifier when approaching an assault hex.
The caveat for me have been you need good over-watch. I've been scrabbed a couple times from AT fire. That leaves a serious mark.
RE: Tactics - How to use APC's - Hugmenot - 07-27-2012
In the last scenario I played - http://www.pg-hq.com/library.php?type=scenario&id=PzLi003 - the SPW 251 the Germans received as reinforcements were of very little value as the Soviets had already sealed off their access to the main sector. I used the SPW 251 to shut down an AT gun which was keeping the panzers from flanking the town to the west but lost 3 of them on the way.
In http://www.pg-hq.com/library.php?type=scenario&id=WiSo025, I set up two stacks of 3xM3 in the center of town and out of sight of the panzers. My idea was to use them as part of a shock counter-assault troop to deny town hex control/contest to the Germans. That did not work well but I think that was more a factor of rolling 3 consecutive "1" in assault than a bad strategy.
If there is no much armor in a scenario or I think taking a shot at the APC is a very low priority, I sometimes use a APC or two with a weak leader (7-0-0 or 8-0-0) to harass demoralized troops. My primary goal is not to finish off the demoralized troops but rather to push them further away from the action.
Sometimes I use them to move a leader and a foot unit past enemy foot units if I need an OBA spotter in a particular spot. It's risky but then again, I am not risk-averse.
Sometimes I leave them behind as I fail to devise a good use for them.
The good thing about fighting battles on cardboard is I can try any crazy strategy which enters my mind with no real consequence except a bruised ego.
RE: Tactics - How to use APC's - JoeBuckeye - 07-27-2012
Thanks all for the answers to my questions.
This is the first scenario I've played with a number of APC's. I'm used to scenarios with trucks in them and keeping them out of the way until needed to move something somewhere.
It dawned on me that they are much more useful than trucks when I had a German stack of SPW-251's and I saw the 5-5 DF rating and slapped my head. Those could be useful against a mainly INF wave coming at you.
RE: Tactics - How to use APC's - GeneSteeler - 07-27-2012
I've been playing mostly late war scenarios recently, so there are a lot of APCs (and nasty nasty AT Guns!)
APCs are excellent to use to support infantry attacks. In both DF and Assaults, inclusion will usually allow for at least 1 or 2 column shifts. GREN + HMG + 2xSPW gets you on the 24 assault column or 22 DF column! (before modifiers). So if you have them you're crazy not to use them.
Their biggest problem is obviously enemy AT Fire. So, be careful! This also poses interesting issues for the defender. When being attacked by a mixed force, do you try to knock off the armour (low probablility), or are the APCs enough of a threat that you need to deal with them first.