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+--- Thread: Airborne corps (/showthread.php?tid=1416)
Airborne corps - leonard - 12-05-2016
Did you read the excellent article from Peter Lloyd in AP dayly content ? And new counters for the US Airborne corps too !
Many thanks, Peter !
The half-HMG are especially interesting along with the distinction between glider and parachute troops.
In some recent research, I've reached the same conclusion as for the use of specific bazooka teams. But I was surprised by the 2-2 Direct fire value of these teams. Does it include the few rifles of the team or are the rocket explosive effects factored in these numbers ? Moreover, is the 3-0 AT value enough for the latest baz models used during the battle of the bulge ?
Another point is the December '44 changes made to the Airborne infantry forces. 5-3 direct fire value seems far too low for parachute infantry during the Bulge : one full squad had been added to each platoon at that time and 2 X .30 MG were available per squad (but no BAR). Peter, don't you think 7-3 would be a better idea ?
RE: Airborne corps - plloyd1010 - 12-05-2016
Thank you Philippe. I'm glad you liked it. Before I respond to your questions, I do try to keep my additions withing the system, This philosophy applies to house rules and new counters. Consiquently there are systemix constains considered in the counter additions.
(12-05-2016, 08:35 AM)leonard Wrote: The half-HMG are especially interesting along with the distinction between glider and parachute troops.These are only ½HMG in the same sense that a 20mm AA gun is a ½gun. These are the same M2 as the other army HMG counters contain. The only real difference is in the mounting. The gun is on a pedestal cross mount, anchored with stakes. That is why they got the same fire values, but are treated differently.
(12-05-2016, 08:35 AM)leonard Wrote: In some recent research, I've reached the same conclusion as for the use of specific bazooka teams. But I was surprised by the 2-2 Direct fire value of these teams. Does it include the few rifles of the team or are the rocket explosive effects factored in these numbers ? Moreover, is the 3-0 AT value enough for the latest baz models used during the battle of the bulge ?This is basically a copy of jay Townsend's 2.36 Bazooka. The launcher is the same, the rocket is one revision lower. I do think that the AT value is a little low, but this is where one of those systemic considerations came in. I would advise using the ATR modifiers Mr. Rahman suggested for all dedicated infantry anti-tank units.
(12-05-2016, 08:35 AM)leonard Wrote: Another point is the December '44 changes made to the Airborne infantry forces. 5-3 direct fire value seems far too low for parachute infantry during the Bulge : one full squad had been added to each platoon at that time and 2 X .30 MG were available per squad (but no BAR). Peter, don't you think 7-3 would be a better idea ?No I don't. Keep in mind that parachute infantry only has 2 squads at this time. The upgrade you are thinking of doesn't happen until early 1945. Shortly after the Battle of the Bulge. At that time the glider infantry will be phased out and the airborne division will become triangular down to the squad level.
Thanks again. Glad you liked it.
RE: Airborne corps - leonard - 12-07-2016
(12-05-2016, 11:43 AM)plloyd1010 Wrote: This is basically a copy of jay Townsend's 2.36 Bazooka. The launcher is the same, the rocket is one revision lower. I do think that the AT value is a little low, but this is where one of those systemic considerations came in. I would advise using the ATR modifiers Mr. Rahman suggested for all dedicated infantry anti-tank units.
I agree: the AT value is too low but we have already discussed that point previously. My question was adressing the DIRECT fire value: your Baz counters indicate 2-2 Direct/Assault Fire value. Jay's counters were 0-0 and did not count against stacking.
RE: Airborne corps - leonard - 12-07-2016
(12-07-2016, 02:39 AM)Another point is the December \44 changes made to the Airborne infantry forces. 5-3 direct fire value seems far too low for parachute infantry during the Bulge : one full squad had been added to each platoon at that time and 2 X .30 MG were available per squad (but no BAR). Peter, don't you think 7-3 would be a better idea ? Wrote:I was refering to "US Airborne Divisions in the ETO 1944-45" by Steven Zaloga: Large changes occurred under December 44 TOE. With the PIR receiving additional troops and equipment -> increase in strength in the parachute inf bat due to the addition of a third rifle squad in each rifle platoon; previously there had only been two. Even after the expansion, this formation was only about 2/3 the size of a conventional inf rgt. Because lack of cannon coy and AT coy + 16 vs 34 2 ½ t trucks, 1 vs 4 1 ¾ t and 1 ½ t trucks, 15 vs 149 jeeps.(12-05-2016, 11:43 AM)plloyd1010 Wrote: No I don't. Keep in mind that parachute infantry only has 2 squads at this time. The upgrade you are thinking of doesn't happen until early 1945. Shortly after the Battle of the Bulge. At that time the glider infantry will be phased out and the airborne division will become triangular down to the squad level.
Para inf Coy = Coy HQ + 3 X Rifle platoons (1 plt = 49 men)
1 Para inf squad = 12 men + 2 X Sgt (7 rifles + 3 X LMG)
Para inf bat : 35 X . 30 LMG, 0 X .50 cal HMG, 21 X Baz, 9 X 60mm Mtr, 4 X 81mm Mtr
Although the same size as a regular inf coy’s rifle squad, the parachute rifle squad had more firepower with 2 .30cal MG/BAR vs one BAR in the regular squad.
RE: Airborne corps - plloyd1010 - 12-07-2016
On the bazookas, I am assuming M1 carbines. Like the M1 Garand, but shouter and a 30 round magazine. They were quite common used by gunners loaders, ammo handlers, and so on.
I am reasonably familiar with Mr. Zaloga's books, and I also have that particular book. The LMG's referred to by your quote are BAR's, the M1919A4 were removed from the platoons. This made the airborne platoon similar to what the marines had done in the Pacific. The first combat employment of the new organization was in March of 1945, with Operation Varsity.
RE: Airborne corps - leonard - 12-17-2016
(12-07-2016, 05:40 AM)plloyd1010 Wrote: On the bazookas, I am assuming M1 carbines. Like the M1 Garand, but shouter and a 30 round magazine. They were quite common used by gunners loaders, ammo handlers, and so on.
I am reasonably familiar with Mr. Zaloga's books, and I also have that particular book. The LMG's referred to by your quote are BAR's, the M1919A4 were removed from the platoons. This made the airborne platoon similar to what the marines had done in the Pacific. The first combat employment of the new organization was in March of 1945, with Operation Varsity.
Oh ! OK, you must be right. Zaloga's text is a bit evasive on the exact date...