+- PG-HQ Forums (https://www.pg-hq.com/comms)
+-- Forum: Panzer Grenadier (https://www.pg-hq.com/comms/forumdisplay.php?fid=3)
+--- Forum: General Discussion (https://www.pg-hq.com/comms/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Thread: Counter stats (/showthread.php?tid=1157)
Counter stats - leonard - 07-28-2015
An Army at Dawn is a very nice and attractive game.
However there are some little things that I don't understand.
First: why aren't the slopes "steep" when the terrain is clearly mountainous (Djebel) ?
Second: the German 28mm sPzB gun that is appearing in this game seems to have an excessive AT range (5) when it is wellknown that the squeeze bore was limiting the accuracy and range. 3 is max range, I think (500m is the effective range). No big deal.
Third: somebody on this forum already asked a question about the French 47mm AT gun. It can't be French really with the counter stats included. The French 47mm APX gun was far more dangerous: see the counter in "Fall of France".
Fourth: this is a more general comment about vehicle mounted AA guns. In the "Battle of the Bulge", two new counters were highly interesting: the US M16 AA halftrack and the German Wirblewind.
The M16 (meatchopper) has 4 X 12.7mm MGs mounted on a halftrack: it was a deadly weapon. In the game, it is given 24-7 (direct fire) and 0-3 (AT). While the direct fire is impressive, the AT value is quite surprising since weapons with a caliber less than 20mm are generally not given any AT value (20mm = 0 AT value).
The Wirblewind has 4 X 20mm AA guns (Flakvierling) and receives 18-8 (direct fire) and 1-4 (AT). OK, fine.
In Elsenborn, the M16 again appeared with the same stats as in the Bulge and the German SPW251/21 (Drilling : with 3 X heavy 15mm AAMG) is given 12-9 (direct) and 1-4 (AT). Here, 15mm caliber is worth 1 in AT fire.
In Fall of France, I have included the SK 6/2 (a 37mm AA gun on unarmored halftrack) but it was unfortunately mislabelled SK 7/2. No big deal.
And then, the German SK 7/1 (flakvierling on halftrack) appeared in Kursk, south flank and Burning Tigers: the counter is only 9-8 (direct) and 1-3 (AT) !!! And again in the new GD43 counters. This is an error: it should have the same stats as the Wirblewind.
In Liberation 44, the British player gets the Crusader AA (2 X 20mm AA guns, sometimes 3 X 20mm). The counter is 10-8 (direct), 1-4 (AT) which is fine but more than the SK 7/1.
In An Army at dawn, the US T28 (1 X 37mm AA gun + 2 X .50 cal AAMGs) gets 20-7 (direct) and 2-5 (AT).
Conclusion : the SK7/1 counter should be revised to get 18-8 (direct) 1-4 (AT).
RE: Counter stats - zaarin7 - 07-28-2015
The .50 (12.7mm) round was originaly designed as an AT round. I suspect some of the differences in values are because of play ballance in the individual games. Also, like in the naval games, Avalanche is constanly changing things to better reflect reality.
Just as an example I was looking at USN BB's today and didn't realise the 5"/51 secondaries had been changed from secondary on older counters (Plan's Orange, Black and Red) to tertiaries (Plan Gold). That is a huge change IMHO and again IMHO was not justified. Study of the gun on navweaps and comparison to 6" weapons of other navies will show it was equell. However Avalanche has decided to do that.
Another instance is the change in stats of the armored cruisers in the latest book supplements even though that has been going on on the site for quite some time. Many of them had been given minimal primary gun numbers. But now it is changed to bigger secondary numbers and teriary numbers. Several older battleships over time have been redone as well.
RE: Counter stats - mike perryman - 07-28-2015
Leonard,
I will try to answer your questions as best I can.
1. Steep slopes were not used for a variety of reasons ranging from historical to playability. The after action reports of the infantry didn't dwell on the terrain like those of Italy and the Vogas fighting. The infantry seemed to be able to climb the mountains without resorting to the extreme measure of mountain troops. No doubt there were some steep slopes but the combatants either worked around them or didn't leave a detailed enough account of them to make them useful.
2. The original 28mm gun ammunition did have a range of 500 meters. Starting in 1942 production of a new fragmented round with PENT became the most produced round for the 28mm. At 1,000 meters in game terms it penetrated the same amount of armor as the Russian 45mm gun and only slightly less in the real world.
3. My mistake pure and simple. I was misinformed that Schneider had some extra 47M31 guns from their production run for Belgium and they ended up in Africa. My apologies to everyone.
4. Originally the SK7/1 had the same firepower as the Wirbelwind but this created problems. They were used in platoons of three and giving them the same firepower as four or five whibelwinds is overrating them. The next thought was to just use the reduced side but this shortchanged both their firepower and morale. It was common to use them for fire support in the recon battalions and their morale seems to be on par with these troops. I felt the best solution was to have a lower rated two step unit.
Thanks, Mike
RE: Counter stats - leonard - 07-29-2015
(07-28-2015, 02:50 PM)mike perryman Wrote:Thanks for answering, Mike ! I strongly believe we need articles on the games background, about the choices that have been made _and_ the historical context. So, let's go on :
1. Steep slopes were not used for a variety of reasons ranging from historical to playability. The after action reports of the infantry didn't dwell on the terrain like those of Italy and the Vogas fighting. The infantry seemed to be able to climb the mountains without resorting to the extreme measure of mountain troops. No doubt there were some steep slopes but the combatants either worked around them or didn't leave a detailed enough account of them to make them useful.
2. The original 28mm gun ammunition did have a range of 500 meters. Starting in 1942 production of a new fragmented round with PENT became the most produced round for the 28mm. At 1,000 meters in game terms it penetrated the same amount of armor as the Russian 45mm gun and only slightly less in the real world.
3. My mistake pure and simple. I was misinformed that Schneider had some extra 47M31 guns from their production run for Belgium and they ended up in Africa. My apologies to everyone.
4. Originally the SK7/1 had the same firepower as the Wirbelwind but this created problems. They were used in platoons of three and giving them the same firepower as four or five whibelwinds is overrating them. The next thought was to just use the reduced side but this shortchanged both their firepower and morale. It was common to use them for fire support in the recon battalions and their morale seems to be on par with these troops. I felt the best solution was to have a lower rated two step unit.
Steep slopes: well, Djebel is mountain. If it is not so important for infantry, steep slopes prevent vehicles of running around the slopes and keep them on the roads.
28mm new round: OK, very interesting !
SK7/1. From Thomas Jentz: "Initially, the Sd.Kfz.7/1 were organized as two or three in one platoon with the rest of the Flak-Kompanie/Batterie outfitted with Sd.Kfz.10/4 or 10/5. Later by 1943, complete Flak-Batterien were outfitted with 12 Sd.Kfz.7/1. Starting in 1943, a platoon of 3 Sd.Kfz.7/1 was added to the Stabs-Kompanie of Panzer-Abteilungen." And for the Wirblewind, a platoon of 4 was issued to each Pz.-Fla-Zug.
It seems to me that the difference is not so obvious between the two and I still favor an upgrading of the SK 7/1: let's say 3/4 X 18 = 13 or 14 direct fire...
I must admit my question was prompted by the fact I was computing the counters for the AAMGs used by the French (mainly in Africa): dual 13.2mm MGs and quad 13.2mm MGs on vehicle mounts. And the stats of these did not match with the rest...