(03-06-2024, 03:09 PM)triangular_cube Wrote:

(03-06-2024, 12:42 PM)garbare83686 Wrote:

(03-04-2024, 10:24 AM)triangular_cube Wrote:

(03-04-2024, 09:56 AM)OldPueblo Wrote:

(03-04-2024, 09:39 AM)triangular_cube Wrote: Yes, you are doing it correctly, but the opinion being espoused my many in this thread is that an X means every unit in the hex takes a step loss, 2X means every unit in the hex takes 2 step losses, 3X every unit takes 3 step losses. This thread was begun by asking others if they support forcing both units in the example to take a step loss on a CRT result of X. 

It almost makes me wonder if they are using a 2nd edition Bombardment chart and not realizing it? The rest of us are kind of scratching our heads trying to figure out where the interpretation is even coming from.

Thanks for your reply, this is helpful, though I'm still confused.

In the example that started this thread it was using the 4th Edition Bombardment Chart. A German AT gun and an INF were both in the same hex. A bombardment throw of 12, indicates an X on the 21 column (against the INF) and another X on the 30 column (against the AT unit.

That what is confusing me. The rules lawyers on this thread say that you toss out the X result on the lower column and only count the X as a step loss on the upper column - which would only affect the AT gun unit - and I guess its organic transport unit as well. The others are saying that because both columns indicate an X result, both units should lose a step. So far, I am inclined to agree with that interpretation, since both the a and the b clauses on the Results section of the Bombardment CRT describe an X result. BUT, is maybe that is only referring to the AT weapon unit's transport, which would take the second X result in this case - leaving the INF unit unhurt?

Split columns are irrelevant here because they both resulted in "X". In this specific instance, all we have is a singular Bombardment attack that resulted in an "X" as the CRT result. Accordingly you resolve it as an X, resulting in 1 step loss to 1 combat unit (owner's choice) + removal of one transport.

Forcing the prioritization of the AT gun because of its +1 modifier apparently is a house rule that others use, but its not in the actual rules. A combat unit is a combat unit is a combat unit. This was a specific change going from second to third editions, and then carried into fourth. 2nd Edition has special rules for losses to weapon units but lets not dig into that to confuse people even more. 

When it gets complicated is when the columns find a different result. Say the roll was an 11, still on the 21 and 30 columns. In this case only the AT gun would "see" the "X" result so it would be required to take the step loss. The INF "see's" the result as an "M2" and roll accordingly. The INF does not suffer an additional M2 as a result of the X for the AT gun as this, once again, is just ONE bombardment attack.

How does 7.5 apply here? It clearly says to apply the die roll to the different columns:
 7.52 Separate Column Modifers in One Attack - In some cases, a column modifier will apply to some units in a target hex but not others. In such a case, make one dice roll for the attack, but use different columns to determine the combat results on the different target units.

I would play it where the Art and Inf each take a step loss and the infantry then must pass a M2 moral check (per 7.6)

That would be conducting multiple attacks though, which is why the rules header in 7.52 specifies that it is still one attack. The interaction, albeit not this specific interaction is included in the example in the rules text. For those that dont have it up, a single split column attack results in an M1 to an Infantry unit and an X to a weapon unit per die roll.

If it was played as you are suggesting, with it being treated as two attacks with cumulative effects then the Infantry would receive an M1 and the weapon would receive an X, then the INF would receive an M2 from the cumulative effect of the X.

But that's not what happens, as the example illustrates. It is ONE attack you are just finding the result on separate columns, hence the weapon receives X and is eliminated, and the INF receives and M2 via the weapon X. The M1 is dropped, again ONE attack, not cumulative. 

When ONE attack achieves an X, one step is lost, not one per unit...

(03-08-2024, 06:58 AM)OldPueblo Wrote:

(03-06-2024, 03:09 PM)triangular_cube Wrote:

(03-06-2024, 12:42 PM)garbare83686 Wrote:

(03-04-2024, 10:24 AM)triangular_cube Wrote:

(03-04-2024, 09:56 AM)OldPueblo Wrote: Thanks for your reply, this is helpful, though I'm still confused.

In the example that started this thread it was using the 4th Edition Bombardment Chart. A German AT gun and an INF were both in the same hex. A bombardment throw of 12, indicates an X on the 21 column (against the INF) and another X on the 30 column (against the AT unit.

That what is confusing me. The rules lawyers on this thread say that you toss out the X result on the lower column and only count the X as a step loss on the upper column - which would only affect the AT gun unit - and I guess its organic transport unit as well. The others are saying that because both columns indicate an X result, both units should lose a step. So far, I am inclined to agree with that interpretation, since both the a and the b clauses on the Results section of the Bombardment CRT describe an X result. BUT, is maybe that is only referring to the AT weapon unit's transport, which would take the second X result in this case - leaving the INF unit unhurt?

Split columns are irrelevant here because they both resulted in "X". In this specific instance, all we have is a singular Bombardment attack that resulted in an "X" as the CRT result. Accordingly you resolve it as an X, resulting in 1 step loss to 1 combat unit (owner's choice) + removal of one transport.

Forcing the prioritization of the AT gun because of its +1 modifier apparently is a house rule that others use, but its not in the actual rules. A combat unit is a combat unit is a combat unit. This was a specific change going from second to third editions, and then carried into fourth. 2nd Edition has special rules for losses to weapon units but lets not dig into that to confuse people even more. 

When it gets complicated is when the columns find a different result. Say the roll was an 11, still on the 21 and 30 columns. In this case only the AT gun would "see" the "X" result so it would be required to take the step loss. The INF "see's" the result as an "M2" and roll accordingly. The INF does not suffer an additional M2 as a result of the X for the AT gun as this, once again, is just ONE bombardment attack.

How does 7.5 apply here? It clearly says to apply the die roll to the different columns:
 7.52 Separate Column Modifers in One Attack - In some cases, a column modifier will apply to some units in a target hex but not others. In such a case, make one dice roll for the attack, but use different columns to determine the combat results on the different target units.

I would play it where the Art and Inf each take a step loss and the infantry then must pass a M2 moral check (per 7.6)

That would be conducting multiple attacks though, which is why the rules header in 7.52 specifies that it is still one attack. The interaction, albeit not this specific interaction is included in the example in the rules text. For those that dont have it up, a single split column attack results in an M1 to an Infantry unit and an X to a weapon unit per die roll.

If it was played as you are suggesting, with it being treated as two attacks with cumulative effects then the Infantry would receive an M1 and the weapon would receive an X, then the INF would receive an M2 from the cumulative effect of the X.

But that's not what happens, as the example illustrates. It is ONE attack you are just finding the result on separate columns, hence the weapon receives X and is eliminated, and the INF receives and M2 via the weapon X. The M1 is dropped, again ONE attack, not cumulative. 

When ONE attack achieves an X, one step is lost, not one per unit...

Sorry, I don't understand how this amount to Two attacks. It's one target hex, in one action segment, with two units with the misfortune of being on the receiving end of the combat result.

(03-08-2024, 07:25 AM)triangular_cube Wrote:

(03-08-2024, 06:58 AM)OldPueblo Wrote:

(03-06-2024, 03:09 PM)triangular_cube Wrote:

(03-06-2024, 12:42 PM)garbare83686 Wrote:

(03-04-2024, 10:24 AM)triangular_cube Wrote: Split columns are irrelevant here because they both resulted in "X". In this specific instance, all we have is a singular Bombardment attack that resulted in an "X" as the CRT result. Accordingly you resolve it as an X, resulting in 1 step loss to 1 combat unit (owner's choice) + removal of one transport.

Forcing the prioritization of the AT gun because of its +1 modifier apparently is a house rule that others use, but its not in the actual rules. A combat unit is a combat unit is a combat unit. This was a specific change going from second to third editions, and then carried into fourth. 2nd Edition has special rules for losses to weapon units but lets not dig into that to confuse people even more. 

When it gets complicated is when the columns find a different result. Say the roll was an 11, still on the 21 and 30 columns. In this case only the AT gun would "see" the "X" result so it would be required to take the step loss. The INF "see's" the result as an "M2" and roll accordingly. The INF does not suffer an additional M2 as a result of the X for the AT gun as this, once again, is just ONE bombardment attack.

How does 7.5 apply here? It clearly says to apply the die roll to the different columns:
 7.52 Separate Column Modifers in One Attack - In some cases, a column modifier will apply to some units in a target hex but not others. In such a case, make one dice roll for the attack, but use different columns to determine the combat results on the different target units.

I would play it where the Art and Inf each take a step loss and the infantry then must pass a M2 moral check (per 7.6)

That would be conducting multiple attacks though, which is why the rules header in 7.52 specifies that it is still one attack. The interaction, albeit not this specific interaction is included in the example in the rules text. For those that dont have it up, a single split column attack results in an M1 to an Infantry unit and an X to a weapon unit per die roll.

If it was played as you are suggesting, with it being treated as two attacks with cumulative effects then the Infantry would receive an M1 and the weapon would receive an X, then the INF would receive an M2 from the cumulative effect of the X.

But that's not what happens, as the example illustrates. It is ONE attack you are just finding the result on separate columns, hence the weapon receives X and is eliminated, and the INF receives and M2 via the weapon X. The M1 is dropped, again ONE attack, not cumulative. 

When ONE attack achieves an X, one step is lost, not one per unit...

Sorry, I don't understand how this amount to Two attacks. It's one target hex, in one action segment, with two units with the misfortune of being on the receiving end of the combat result.

Two separate, cumulative results = two attacks

(03-08-2024, 10:12 AM)Grognard Gunny Wrote: This is beginning to look like a situation where one just flips a coin and continues to play.

GG

(03-08-2024, 07:25 AM)triangular_cube Wrote:

(03-08-2024, 06:58 AM)OldPueblo Wrote:

(03-06-2024, 03:09 PM)triangular_cube Wrote:

(03-06-2024, 12:42 PM)garbare83686 Wrote:

(03-04-2024, 10:24 AM)triangular_cube Wrote: Split columns are irrelevant here because they both resulted in "X". In this specific instance, all we have is a singular Bombardment attack that resulted in an "X" as the CRT result. Accordingly you resolve it as an X, resulting in 1 step loss to 1 combat unit (owner's choice) + removal of one transport.

Forcing the prioritization of the AT gun because of its +1 modifier apparently is a house rule that others use, but its not in the actual rules. A combat unit is a combat unit is a combat unit. This was a specific change going from second to third editions, and then carried into fourth. 2nd Edition has special rules for losses to weapon units but lets not dig into that to confuse people even more. 

When it gets complicated is when the columns find a different result. Say the roll was an 11, still on the 21 and 30 columns. In this case only the AT gun would "see" the "X" result so it would be required to take the step loss. The INF "see's" the result as an "M2" and roll accordingly. The INF does not suffer an additional M2 as a result of the X for the AT gun as this, once again, is just ONE bombardment attack.

How does 7.5 apply here? It clearly says to apply the die roll to the different columns:
 7.52 Separate Column Modifers in One Attack - In some cases, a column modifier will apply to some units in a target hex but not others. In such a case, make one dice roll for the attack, but use different columns to determine the combat results on the different target units.

I would play it where the Art and Inf each take a step loss and the infantry then must pass a M2 moral check (per 7.6)

That would be conducting multiple attacks though, which is why the rules header in 7.52 specifies that it is still one attack. The interaction, albeit not this specific interaction is included in the example in the rules text. For those that dont have it up, a single split column attack results in an M1 to an Infantry unit and an X to a weapon unit per die roll.

If it was played as you are suggesting, with it being treated as two attacks with cumulative effects then the Infantry would receive an M1 and the weapon would receive an X, then the INF would receive an M2 from the cumulative effect of the X.

But that's not what happens, as the example illustrates. It is ONE attack you are just finding the result on separate columns, hence the weapon receives X and is eliminated, and the INF receives and M2 via the weapon X. The M1 is dropped, again ONE attack, not cumulative. 

When ONE attack achieves an X, one step is lost, not one per unit...

Sorry, I don't understand how this amount to Two attacks. It's one target hex, in one action segment, with two units with the misfortune of being on the receiving end of the combat result.

Two separate, cumulative results = two attacks

(03-08-2024, 02:36 PM)garbare83686 Wrote:

(03-08-2024, 07:25 AM)triangular_cube Wrote:

(03-08-2024, 06:58 AM)OldPueblo Wrote:

(03-06-2024, 03:09 PM)triangular_cube Wrote:

(03-06-2024, 12:42 PM)garbare83686 Wrote: How does 7.5 apply here? It clearly says to apply the die roll to the different columns:
 7.52 Separate Column Modifers in One Attack - In some cases, a column modifier will apply to some units in a target hex but not others. In such a case, make one dice roll for the attack, but use different columns to determine the combat results on the different target units.

I would play it where the Art and Inf each take a step loss and the infantry then must pass a M2 moral check (per 7.6)

That would be conducting multiple attacks though, which is why the rules header in 7.52 specifies that it is still one attack. The interaction, albeit not this specific interaction is included in the example in the rules text. For those that dont have it up, a single split column attack results in an M1 to an Infantry unit and an X to a weapon unit per die roll.

If it was played as you are suggesting, with it being treated as two attacks with cumulative effects then the Infantry would receive an M1 and the weapon would receive an X, then the INF would receive an M2 from the cumulative effect of the X.

But that's not what happens, as the example illustrates. It is ONE attack you are just finding the result on separate columns, hence the weapon receives X and is eliminated, and the INF receives and M2 via the weapon X. The M1 is dropped, again ONE attack, not cumulative. 

When ONE attack achieves an X, one step is lost, not one per unit...

Sorry, I don't understand how this amount to Two attacks. It's one target hex, in one action segment, with two units with the misfortune of being on the receiving end of the combat result.

Two separate, cumulative results = two attacks

It is one attack with different results based on the type of targets in the hex. It just happens to be a disaster for the receiving end. In other cases a very strong attack does nothing, so it evens out over the course of a battle. You can always disregard the rule when playing, but it was clearly written to address this specific example and is clear about how to handle them. The rule clearly says "one attack" and to apply results on two different applicable columns. I was simply answering the initial question which seemed to ask how to apply the rules, you can house rule anything you want to.