+- PG-HQ Forums (https://www.pg-hq.com/comms)
+-- Forum: Panzer Grenadier (https://www.pg-hq.com/comms/forumdisplay.php?fid=3)
+--- Forum: Panzer Grenadier Rules (https://www.pg-hq.com/comms/forumdisplay.php?fid=9)
+--- Thread: [Fog of War] - Large Scenarios (/showthread.php?tid=550)
RE: [Fog of War] - Large Scenarios - Matt W - 05-22-2013
I agree with Daniel that the current RAW on FoW favor the defender in large scenarios. There simply aren't enough activations to permit recover of units demoralized or even disrupted "on the march". Previous comments suggesting that it puts a premium on chained command, etc. are certainly appropriate but I find that, in large battles, my battlefield is littered with attacking units that never made it into the fight as they were hit with bombardment and failed a morale check. In smaller battles I find that these units often do recover and end up back in the fight, in large battles they are usually lost for the entire scenario.
While I see these effects in scenarios as small as 125 units, when the scenario exceeds 200 units the issue becomes acute. In playing KSF #5 - Manhandled (I really do have to figure out how to add links) with 242 units I found that the Germans were unable to recover units lost on the march (and there were plenty) or even advance their slightly lower priority weapons.
I rationalized it as the difficulty of having such a large force attacking on a small front but that is only rationalization. On the other hand, I typically was missing the opportunity to move forward by 3-4 activations, however. In that particular scenario, with 242 units all but one turn ended on a FoW roll and I actually had in my notes taht FoW combined with lack of initiative was the limiting issue for the Germans, not the firepower or mass of the attacking force. I should also note, however, that I absolutely loved the scenario as played. Many of the later scenarios are finely defined and depend on FoW to provide for a balance. This is especially true when, as noted upthread, there are multiple objectives to be obtained.
I would suggest, if anything, adding a free activation for every 50 units or portion above 150 before beginning to roll for FoW, so for the scenario above, each side would get 5 free activations before FoW rolls. This will marginally help the defender, however, in my experience even with the limit of 3 free activations the defenders were generally reduced to merely rolling for FoW since they had already used all activations that they wanted to use. The impact on the attacker however, will be significant. I find that the "stragglers" are typically under command and can have multiple recovery attempts and/or reserve movements if they only have that one or two more activations. I will also point out that most larger scenarios have their unit totals vastly altered by hordes of transport units, some allowance for those units is probably required but not at the 1-1 count currently suggested.
This change will not, however, eliminate or even substantially reduce the FoW roll of 17 on the first roll of the turn, so significant and material disruption of plans will still occur with the current frequency. It does permit the attacker to complete more high priority tasks than under the current FoW rules but in scenarios that large it certainly won't permit them all to be completed. The defender in such scenarios also typically has more than 5 or so critical actions and will be similarly hampered in such circumstances.
Having thus presented and discussed the impact of the addition of some free activations, I will now veer terribly away and suggest a wildly variant approach - formation activation. Consider the number of battalions that each player has as a counter for "free" activations. For example the Germans in the scenario I have selected could be considered to have 5-6 battalions. Give each player a minimum of three free activations with additional free activations for each battalion above three in the OOB. The kicker is that the "free" activation must be used by units of that battalion. (Also consider adding one for every 3 or portion of 3 OBA increments). If FoW is rolled before every battalion has used their free activation they may still use it after the roll.
This is merely a thought and I have not tried to flesh it out much yet. It will lead to unbalanced activations for each side and will lead to the number of free activations changing during the turn and will lead to tons of alternate bookkeeping during play, but I think that the impact of FoW on larger scenarios needs to be considered. I am currently starting to look at larger formations (say divisional) battles and trying to get my arms around what would be necessary to design such monsters and the FoW rules will be a substantial issue in that.
So, as usual I have thrown in my two cents and it has probably muddled more than clarified the issue. My apologies but I would be interested in any thoughts along those lines.
RE: [Fog of War] - Large Scenarios - Hugmenot - 05-23-2013
(05-22-2013, 08:42 PM)campsawyer Wrote: I fully understand that statistically defenders in large scenarios benefit a little more than attackersI find the defenders benefit a lot more from FoW than the attackers in large scenarios that have exit and control hexes objectives.
To Vince,
There is 35 / 1296 probability (~2.7%) the sum of 4d6 will be 21 or more. This means there will be ~36.0 rolls of 20 or less before FoW. I will experiment with that in the next two very large scenarios (> 250 units) I play.
To Peter,
The sliding FoW modifier idea is interesting. I will collect some data over the next few months and see if I can come up with a model that works for me. Counting the number of activation segments is just one of the statistics I track when playing solo so that won't be a burden to me. You can blame my love of statistics on 25+ years of playing sports simulations.
RE: [Fog of War] - Large Scenarios - vince hughes - 05-23-2013
(05-23-2013, 12:12 AM)Hugmenot Wrote: I will collect some data over the next few months and see if I can come up with a model that works for me. Counting the number of activation segments is just one of the statistics I track when playing solo so that won't be a burden to me. You can blame my love of statistics on 25+ years of playing sports simulations.
I know Alan used to keep track of all the AS's when we played. He may be able to add quantity to your research material ?
RE: [Fog of War] - Large Scenarios - joe_oppenheimer - 05-23-2013
" it is my belief that FoW is suppose to be a cruel fate rather than a statistical normal"
I like that.
I don't usually play really big scenarios but my preference would be to either not use FoW in them, or accept what fate brings if you do.
RE: [Fog of War] - Large Scenarios - Hugmenot - 05-23-2013
(05-23-2013, 12:47 AM)vince hughes Wrote: I know Alan used to keep track of all the AS's when we played. He may be able to add quantity to your research material ?In addition to tracking the number of activation segments, I want to track the number of activation segments I would like to have, and maybe track the results per turn and phases (approach, middle game, end game type phases).
My goal is to develop house rules which will allow me to get more satisfaction out of my large solo plays; nothing else.
I will share my results at the end of the year if someone reminds me!
RE: [Fog of War] - Large Scenarios - campsawyer - 05-23-2013
Daniel, I will not doubt that the FoW benefits the defender in large scenarios, but medium and small scenarios as well. My point being I accept this for what it is, extra fate in the game. If it is too much I just take it out, of which I have only done twice.
I will be interest to see what your results for your plays. I assume that with the other statistics you mentioned that you will add something like "turn ended 25, needed s6 more turns to get all that I wanted this turn".
To Vince's point, I have keep stats on turn activations sense that scenario I mentioned in the prior post. This is 3 years work of plays amounting to 48 games, both solo and FtF. Overall play FoW ended 202 turns out of 347 total turns, on average at the 22nd activation for FoW ended turns, activation 28 for non-FoW ended turns and an overall average of 23rd activation ending the turn. I continue to count them although my sample is probably large enough that this won't change too much. But I will thank Wayne for some of the longer turns in our play for Piercing the Line, that pushed it over the 23rd activation mark.
As for this I have just given Vince, Wayne, Daniel and Tony a leg up on my strategy for our next game.
RE: [Fog of War] - Large Scenarios - vince hughes - 05-23-2013
(05-23-2013, 06:34 AM)campsawyer Wrote: As for this I have just given Vince, Wayne, Daniel and Tony a leg up on my strategy for our next game.
Hang on mate ....................... I'm just taking notes here
RE: [Fog of War] - Large Scenarios - waynebaumber - 05-24-2013
Won't help me I am way too stupid to even count activation's