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+--- Thread: The City Fight (/showthread.php?tid=155)
RE: The City Fight - rerathbun - 10-13-2012
I can see scenario supplements for city fights, including city maps and scenarios, but using counters from the boxed games.
Referencing beast013 and dxdavieau's posts regarding city size and terrain, for a large city like Stalingrad I can see a city sector (campaign) map for the city as a whole, with standard-size PG mapboards (or maybe half-size maps) for the map terrain in individual sectors. The types of terrain would include built-up (multi-story buildings), industrial (large factories), suburb, and park. Each city would have its own city sector map, but use one or more standard terrain maps for individual sectors. You could also include a specific map or two for each city with "actual" terrain (Reichstag and Chancellery area for Berlin, Tractor Factory for Stalingrad).
My (one) thought on adjusting the tactical system to make city fights more PG-friendly concerns scale:
In 'standard' PG scale, one platoon can 'control' a 200 meter hex of clear/woods/field/village terrain, and up to six platoons (friendly and enemy) can fit in a hex for an assault. In city terrain, platoons should only be able to control smaller areas, and the hexes should therefore represent smaller areas.
With platoons controlling smaller areas, it spreads the available forces over more hexes. You still wind up with lots of assault hexes, but it opens the board up for some maneuvering within the city. The Direct Fire tables may or may not need adjustment, since the increased cover should compensate somewhat for the shorter distances.
RE: The City Fight - dxdavieau - 10-13-2012
Rerathbun, you make an excellent point about hex control. TY
RE: The City Fight - rerathbun - 10-14-2012
Thank you. Unfortunately, that's the extent of my insight into the matter. Anybody know how much city 'space' a WWII platoon could control? Also: Is the answer different for built-up vs. suburb and/or industrial areas?
RE: The City Fight - Matt W - 10-14-2012
The problem when you move into "suburbs is that there is more open space. It would look much more like many of the FoF boards with a large number of town hexes with substantial green space surrounding them. As a result, I think that suburbs are well covered by the current rules and scale. True urban fights such as Caen, Warsaw, Stalingrad, Budapest, and Berlin (list not meant to be exhaustive, merely examples) would need the separate rules for scale. I would suggest that a city block of about 150 feet or so would be the upper end of a platoon's ability to control, so two hexes for every one on the current scale (but that is entirely subjective and without any research).
RE: The City Fight - dxdavieau - 10-14-2012
I'm considering suburban to be as PzG town.
For Urban: Mvt = 1/1/1, +40m, +12 spotting, stack = 7 CU+3 transp, -3col all tables
For Industrial: Mvt = 1/1/1, +15m, +6 spotting, stack =7CU+6 transp, -3col all tables
For Rubble: Mvt = 5/x/5, +15m, +3 spotting, Stack =7 CU+0 transp, -4col all tables
All are limiting terrain with rubble spottable at 1 hex like jungle
I'm also considering allowing units to dig-in (ie Fortify) in these hexes for an additional col shift. Rubble would then be -5 but usually netted out to -3 for adjacent fire
RE: The City Fight - Blackcloud6 - 10-14-2012
I wouldn't change a thing as far as the normal rules go. The key in this endeavor is the map design and the scenario design (scenario design is really where all of PG works well, or fails). I would suggest designing a portion of Stalingrad into a map and do a scenario. maybe take "The First Bid" from ASL's Valor of the Guard and scale it up to PG and play it out a few time using the regular rules. (That scenario has a lot of maneuver in it). Do it just as a test.
You may only need to have rules for rubble, which are in Fall of France, and rules for factory complexes and other buildings like the Grain Elevator and such.
I bet you may be surprised that PG actually works in a large city fight. It should.
RE: The City Fight - dxdavieau - 10-15-2012
Here's a shot of Red Barricades from our Stalingrad map. The hexes are 200m. I'd really like to keep the 200m scale, the unit density convinces me some new rules are in order...
RE: The City Fight - Blackcloud6 - 10-15-2012
Why?
One thing I noticed when playing the larger ASL Stalingrad modules is that you don't have enough troops to cover the territoy you need to. So some tough and interesting tactical decisons are needed. Are you saying you need to put more troops per hex that what the normal PG rules allow?
RE: The City Fight - Blackcloud6 - 10-15-2012
The photo looks good and to me makes think that you don't need any different stacking rules. if you allow more troops per hex, then stacking is going to be worse.
One thing I do notice is maybe some line of sight rules changes may be needed. Possibly having actual buildings block LoS instead of "urban hexes." This will allow the long shots down the boulevards, streets, parks and so on.
RE: The City Fight - dxdavieau - 10-15-2012
You're astute in noticing that the picture is CG1 from ASL RB with one hex having been assaulted and won. However, I'm not using RB as the guideline for the counter density, but actual accounts of the assault on the RB factory complex. ASL's OBs are often representative and limited by their counter mix. An entire German regiment attacked that first building in the complex, with tank support. Even given a reserve at all echelons and the depleted state in which they began the assault, 2+ companies per hex seems low....